Ruling Blocks Ual Jet Seizure

[skycruiser]

Sad state of affairs when a judge denies the creditors the right to be paid AND their property!

Ruling blocks UAL jet seizure
By CBS MarketWatch
Last Update: 2:27 PM ET Nov. 27, 2004

Link to the rest of the story

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- As it struggles to emerge from bankruptcy protection, UAL Corp. won a skirmish with creditors as a judge blocked an attempt to seize 14 jets, the Chicago Tribune reported Saturday........... :down:

 

[mrfish3726]

Yeap sad indeed, but it truly shows just what a mess UniTED is really in. It will only get worse, especially if they miss the DIP payment this next quarter. They are running out of time, same as USAIR. It won't be long till they both join the long list of has been airlines. :down: Hell if you missed a few car payments BK or not you'd lose your car eventually, AMAZING.

Maybe they could hire those REPO MEN from the Discovery channel HUH? Do they make boots big enough for a 767 or 737? B)

 

[UAL_TECH]

Yeap sad indeed, but it truly shows just what a mess UniTED is really in. It will only get worse, especially if they miss the DIP payment this next quarter. They are running out of time, same as USAIR. It won't be long till they both join the long list of has been airlines. :down: Hell if you missed a few car payments BK or not you'd lose your car eventually, AMAZING.

Maybe they could hire those REPO MEN from the Discovery channel HUH? Do they make boots big enough for a 767 or 737? B)

[post="204306"][/post]​

I would give you a 'Holiday' retort but I think your emasculated post speaks for itself. I am growing tired of your glee at the demise of UAL and will respond in the future as an adversary to your blood sucking attitude.

You have adamantly lamented in your choices of seeking retirement opportunities for yourself, and I commend you for your foresight to do so, however, for you to continue your tirade on us over here at the 'Lazy U' is reprehensible.

So, in the future fish, sharpen you axe as it will be tested.

B) UT

 

[mrfish3726]

UT,

We'll see if you go along with UniTED'S cost cuts again? Were you one of the guys in the IAM that voted in the last concessionary package which closed both the IMC and OAK maintenance centers and farmed out HMV'? I am sure you were one of the guys that voted in the B scale back in the 80'S. I voted NO on every contract proposal UniTED brought to the IAM.

UniTED is in big trouble financially and it only gets worse with each passing day. When you got creditors wanting their planes back because UniTED management isn't paying the bills, then I'd say it looks pretty glum. That's just the sad fact for both USAIR and UniTED. It's not your fault or the fault of any UAL employee. Everyone knows who really caused all the problems that both airlines are facing. I am not the only one that has predicted the demise of these two carriers UT and you know that! It's not fact yet, some don't believe it! But going into your 3rd year of BK, do YOU really think everything is all rosey??? Do you REALLY believe that management has a sound buisness plan to lead UAL out of BK? Aren't you tired of beig the DIP finacier everytime UniTED management screws the pooch? It's reality my friend, I didn't do it! And the industry would be much healthier with any carrier that can't make it on their own!!!

 

[goingboeing]

This is just one of numerous examples of why chapter 11 is killing the airline business.
The creditors are the RIGHTFUL OWNERS of the mentioned aircraft and should be able to reposess them.
The Creditors have a right to earn a profit with their investment and a DICTATOR JUDGE has interfered with that right.
Chapter 11 laws need to be stomped out ASAP so the airline business can get back to profitability.

 

[markkus757]

If I'm not mistaken, some of the unions have board seats. That would make them almost as accountable as management in United's case. That is a big difference between them and US Airways. I think that there will be changes in the bankrupcty code during Bush's second term. There has been an extraordinary amount of filings in a lot of industries and there have been some honest companies and some incompetent companies among them. This time has showed flaws in the law and I believe someone will fix it.

 

[mrfish3726]

BOD seats at UniTED are by proxy ONLY. The union seats have no horsepower if they still exist? They NEVER HAVE since EFLOP or things would be different at UniTED today. As an EX UAL mechanic I never felt to comfortable with a guy who looked like Jed Clampet that still wore polyester suits representing the IAM at the BOD meetings. Or during contract negotiations the negotiating members wearing their plaid shirts into the meetings. :down:

The employee ownership during EFLOP was such a farce. Management couldn’t wait for
what transpired in the airline industry JUST TO GET RID OF EMPLOYEE ownership. It was all a joke; they knew it and laughed all the way to the bank while they BLEW 8B in profits for the EFLOP. And in the end they stole the EFLOP money to and laughed at everyone AGAIN!!!

EVEN ALPA has no horsepower at UniTED anymore! All the unions are fixing to be broken at UniTED and USAIR. I don't condone union busting at ALL and everyone should seek self-help if they abrogate your contracts!!!

 

[firstamendment]

UT,

We'll see if you go along with UniTED'S cost cuts again? Were you one of the guys in the IAM that voted in the last concessionary package which closed both the IMC and OAK maintenance centers and farmed out HMV'? I am sure you were one of the guys that voted in the B scale back in the 80'S. I voted NO on every contract proposal UniTED brought to the IAM.

UniTED is in big trouble financially and it only gets worse with each passing day. When you got creditors wanting their planes back because UniTED management isn't paying the bills, then I'd say it looks pretty glum. That's just the sad fact for both USAIR and UniTED. It's not your fault or the fault of any UAL employee. Everyone knows who really caused all the problems that both airlines are facing. I am not the only one that has predicted the demise of these two carriers UT and you know that! It's not fact yet, some don't believe it! But going into your 3rd year of BK, do YOU really think everything is all rosey??? Do you REALLY believe that management has a sound buisness plan to lead UAL out of BK? Aren't you tired of beig the DIP finacier everytime UniTED management screws the pooch? It's reality my friend, I didn't do it! And the industry would be much healthier with any carrier that can't make it on their own!!!

[post="204308"][/post]​

Hey MrFish,

You make some good points until you make your delivery. You know, all the condiscending ???

You CAN make a point without the obvious look of overwhelming joy of the potential demise of UAL and U. If it's nor our fault, how about a little more sympathy and a little less sh!t-in-your-face. You just might find people see the good points you make. Or are YOU just a trouble-maker?

 

[WorldTraveler]

What is certain is that the way UAL is treating its creditors is not being lost on the financial community. While UAL has no choice but to restructure its finances, they have dealt adversarily with every one of their stakeholders. Given the many places where money can be invested, I would think potential investors probably will think twice about dealing with UAL. Even though Chapter 11 affords certain legal protections, how it is used can make a big difference in whether a company successfully reorganizes or not.

 

[magsau]

What is certain is that the way UAL is treating its creditors is not being lost on the financial community. While UAL has no choice but to restructure its finances, they have dealt adversarily with every one of their stakeholders. Given the many places where money can be invested, I would think potential investors probably will think twice about dealing with UAL. Even though Chapter 11 affords certain legal protections, how it is used can make a big difference in whether a company successfully reorganizes or not.

[post="204453"][/post]​

World,

Actually what happened is that this small lease group would not negotiate to market rates and UAL was able to make the case to the judge. You can take you "UAL IS EVIL" attitude and stuff it. This is business, UAL gave a lease holder of some of the -400's their aircraft back and told them to bring engines as they were not part of the "aircraft" (bought separately) The lease company then decided to negotiate the lease. On some of the 777's they were returned only to be given back to UAL at rates that were competitive.

Now take you "worldly" opinion and go chat about the demise of Independence Air for a change of pace.

 

[UAL_TECH]

UT,

We'll see if you go along with UniTED'S cost cuts again? Were you one of the guys in the IAM that voted in the last concessionary package which closed both the IMC and OAK maintenance centers and farmed out HMV'? I am sure you were one of the guys that voted in the B scale back in the 80'S. I voted NO on every contract proposal UniTED brought to the IAM.

UniTED is in big trouble financially and it only gets worse with each passing day. When you got creditors wanting their planes back because UniTED management isn't paying the bills, then I'd say it looks pretty glum. That's just the sad fact for both USAIR and UniTED. It's not your fault or the fault of any UAL employee. Everyone knows who really caused all the problems that both airlines are facing. I am not the only one that has predicted the demise of these two carriers UT and you know that! It's not fact yet, some don't believe it! But going into your 3rd year of BK, do YOU really think everything is all rosey??? Do you REALLY believe that management has a sound buisness plan to lead UAL out of BK? Aren't you tired of beig the DIP finacier everytime UniTED management screws the pooch? It's reality my friend, I didn't do it! And the industry would be much healthier with any carrier that can't make it on their own!!!

[post="204308"][/post]​

Fish,

And that is why I have never ‘attacked’ you and/or your posts. I never was your ‘adversary’ because much of what you say is indisputable. I certainly do not believe that everything here is ‘rosy’ and I doubt you will find such an attitude in any of my posts, I don’t drink the ‘Company Kool-Aid’ nor pass it out. My rub with you is in the ‘appearance’ of your ‘joy’ of seeing the employees over here at the ‘Lazy U’ getting the shaft while you stroke yourself. You and I both know that there will not be a positive outcome for the UAL employees even under the ‘best’ scenario imaginable.

Also, it is no secret that when we die, that it will be to the benefit of our competition (You Fish).

If you are sincere in your connection with some of us here, then you should take that into consideration. I have several ‘retired’ friends here from the ‘Lazy U’ that are quite dependent on the survival of UAL in regards not only to their pension, but to the fast eluding health benefits that I have little doubt will be terminated with a Section 1114 filing in the not too distant future. This will invariably put one or two of them in severe financial distress if not in personal bankruptcy.

Thanks for your 30-40 years of service but ‘FU’!!! The ‘company’ must survive!!!

Every time I hear the ‘Forget The Past’ speeches, I cringe in an attempt to hold in my anger (sometimes successfully ).

Then there are the younger employees with families and small children that have of late been looking like a deer caught in the headlights.

There is a lot of unwarranted ‘stresses’ on these good people that have done nothing to deserve this mess and have no way to change the course that is set.

If this ‘company’ were honorable, they would liquidate and give what they have to the retirees and the surviving employees. But you and I both know that this will never happen either.

Therein describes my ‘rub’.

B) UT

 

[WorldTraveler]

mags,
I suppose you think UA has dealt fairly with you, too? I don't know of any airline bankruptcy court where the courts have been turned to so many times in order for the debtors to try and escape their legal obligations - aircraft and municipal related. I will repeat that UA will very likely come to regret its heavy-handed approach to restructuring its debts. UA employees like you should be more concerned that UA restructure itself successfully than in defending management's less-than-exemplary approach.

While you may prefer that I go speak about someone else's demise, I will speak what I believe to be truth where I see it. So far, my track record with calling the shots on what will happen in the industry has been pretty accurate. It's amazing how so many UA employees have come to recognize the failings of management now that they are back for yet another round of concessions despite a number of us have pointed them out for quite some time.

 

[Busdrvr]

World,
I'm not on "the inside", but here's my take on the jet situation. A bunch of jet leasors "unionized" in an effort to force UAL to pay above market rates for their jets. they basically said a year ago "take them all at our price, or none". none would cripple the airline. So the company agreed to above market rates at the time. Time passes, the company wants more savings from the employees. The employees say "get all you should have gotten from the other parties, then come back" the company is now trying to re-negotiate the deals on that block of jets. the coalition of those leaseholders decided they'd basically try a "Chaos" strategy. they picked the jets that would do the most damage to the company right before the holiday's, and decided to try to extort a deal from the company. The judge (who has more/better info than you or me) said no. i think the jets will be allowed to go back if the leasors want them as soon as the spector of extortion goes away (after the holidays).

As to the dealings of the company with employees vs vendors, a 767 is worth a certain amount, period. what Glenn has said is that he wants to pay BELOW market rates and value for employees simply because our seniority numbers have value. He is trying to take some of that value for the company. Quite frankly, there are those that would literally work for free for a period of time to protect that seniority. the same isn't true for a jet.

 

[WorldTraveler]

busdriver,
thank you for taking the time to calmly explain your position. I do understand that UAL asserts that a number of leasing companies have conspired to prohibit UAL from renegotiating leases. I also understand that UAL has tried to stop the practice for months nad has had some success. Nonetheless, the leasing companies see UAL - largely by virtue of the very large size of its fleet - as attempting to push lease rates below market. Given that UA is so large, it really is hard to determine what the market value is. If you think UA is simply asking for market rates, I'd ask you to compare some of the rates that UA is asking for to the rates other solvent airlines are paying for the same age and type of aircraft. While many airlines probably overpaid for aircraft in the late 90s, that is the market and that is what the leasing companies agreed to fund. AA and DL both succeeded at restructuring some of their leases in addition for stock but I doubt if they are as low as what UA is asking for (if anyone has access to the specific rates, I'd be interested in them). I doubt whether UA will be able to prove that some of these aircraft owners are conspiring so this becomes a delay rather than a victory.

The point of my post is that UA's relations with all of its stakeholders - employees, aircraft owners, and municipalities - have all been contentious. Given that the financial community will be the ones that will determine UAL's outcome, it may be pound foolish for UAL to push for some of the rates they are asking and expect to find financing either to get out of bankruptcy or for the financial needs that UAL will need as a newly reconstituted company.

And keep in mind that the reason the leasing companies and UA's creditors are willing to continue to work with UA is because UA is so big that there is no easy place to put the assets under dispute. As the market recovers and the need for aircraft grows, leasing companies will be willing to pull assets away from UAL and place them elsewhere. That is exactly what is happening at US now.

I am certainly sympathetic to the heavy handedness UA has demonstrated to you as an employee. Let's not forget, however, that there are many stakeholders involved in UAL's reorganization, including many everyday Americans who never expected their finances would be as intertwined with United as they are.

 

[JungleClone]

When are you all going to get it? All the tough talk in the world isn't going to change the fact that UA Senior Mgmt holds ALL the cards here. The bankruptcy judge has been wrapped around their finger for two years. You think it's going to change now? Face it, your contracts are going, like it or not. The only card you have to play is an attempt at a strike which may not even be legal. You wanna shut the place down for good? Go right ahead. That's about all the fight you'll be able to put up. And when UA succeeds in getting all these cuts that they want from us, what happens then? The rest of the majors line up to do the same thing because they will have no choice. The pension write-downs alone are too much of a competitive edge for UA to have. You can bet AA and other will follow suit. When it's all over with, what we'll be left with is a completely Wal Mart-ized airline industry. We're all swimming against the tide folks. You've got to pick and choose your battles. Fight this one, and you'll only drown.