"RPA Lawsuit" and Appeal

[Bob Owens]

Stop wasting APFA's money????? Maybe APFA should stop wasting money on polls and bag tags and videos of F/As bitching (page 1 of the APFA website.)

Get to the table, negotiate a contract, oh and ......if it's not too much trouble....respond to the emails we send, and answer the damn phones when we call.

Why would you want to jump into a deal when the economy is bad? Better to hold out and wait till oil drops a little more and get back pay.

 

[Maark767]

Stop wasting APFA's money????? Maybe APFA should stop wasting money on polls and bag tags and videos of F/As bitching (page 1 of the APFA website.)

Get to the table, negotiate a contract, oh and ......if it's not too much trouble....respond to the emails we send, and answer the damn phones when we call.

Well I always that the polls were sent out to give APFA some idea of where the membership stands on certain issues. How else would they find out???
As far as getting to the table.. I'm not sure how long you have been flying but just look back at how long it takes to get a contract. Keep in mind that AA is in no hurry to give out pay increases. AA loves to drag it's feet. And it does so .....
Further more, it might pay off to wait a while to get a contact.... Once this economy turns around and AA starts to make money, APFA will have a much better chance to obtain bigger raises. Ever thought of that ?????

 

[butchord45]

Well I always that the polls were sent out to give APFA some idea of where the membership stands on certain issues. How else would they find out???
As far as getting to the table.. I'm not sure how long you have been flying but just look back at how long it takes to get a contract. Keep in mind that AA is in no hurry to give out pay increases. AA loves to drag it's feet. And it does so .....
Further more, it might pay off to wait a while to get a contact.... Once this economy turns around and AA starts to make money, APFA will have a much better chance to obtain bigger raises. Ever thought of that ?????

Well if that were true.....why don't they release the results of that survey so we can see what the majority wants?

Too often it seems the APFA thinks they know what we should have as opposed to what we tell them we want.

Butch

 

[youbetcha]

Well if that were true.....why don't they release the results of that survey so we can see what the majority wants?

Too often it seems the APFA thinks they know what we should have as opposed to what we tell them we want.

Butch

APFA wouldn't release the survey results to anyone, nor should they. Why should the company know how strongly we all feel about this item or that item? They would use that info to manipulate the Negotiating Team.
It's bad enough when FAs run to the company to tell them what they would give up. APFA doesn't need to be supplying them with the actual numbers. Plus....the amount of FAs who actually do respond is not going to be revealed either...for good reason. Management and the press call APFA's hotline every week along with going to the website. Just look at how many "guests" there are at any given time on the website. There is just no way to share those numbers with the rest of us without management and the press getting them. That would be disastrous for the team. It would pit one group against another and provide way too much leverage to the "outside" world.

APFA may speak in generalities but the actual numbers are kept very close to the vest. And, yes, there are times when any negotiating team has to make decisions that are not part of the majority. That is why it is called collective bargaining. It is for the whole group.

It's kind of like a FA saying that all FAs they fly with want multi day trips. Well....all the FAs they fly with BID multi day trips so of course that is what they hear and think they are the majority. TA FAs, same thing. Also, what some want may cause great harm to others, like unlimited PVDs. Just because the pilots had it, we had to have it. Anyone under 30 years had a PVD lately???? That would have been the perfect example of something to test before putting it into binding contractual language.

I would love to know what the numbers are as well and the categories involved but I do understand why they cannot be shared. And, it is so very important for all voices to participate and be heard. There is a new scheduling survey online right now.

 

[Maark767]

APFA wouldn't release the survey results to anyone, nor should they. Why should the company know how strongly we all feel about this item or that item? They would use that info to manipulate the Negotiating Team.
It's bad enough when FAs run to the company to tell them what they would give up. APFA doesn't need to be supplying them with the actual numbers. Plus....the amount of FAs who actually do respond is not going to be revealed either...for good reason. Management and the press call APFA's hotline every week along with going to the website. Just look at how many "guests" there are at any given time on the website. There is just no way to share those numbers with the rest of us without management and the press getting them. That would be disastrous for the team. It would pit one group against another and provide way too much leverage to the "outside" world.

APFA may speak in generalities but the actual numbers are kept very close to the vest. And, yes, there are times when any negotiating team has to make decisions that are not part of the majority. That is why it is called collective bargaining. It is for the whole group.

It's kind of like a FA saying that all FAs they fly with want multi day trips. Well....all the FAs they fly with BID multi day trips so of course that is what they hear and think they are the majority. TA FAs, same thing. Also, what some want may cause great harm to others, like unlimited PVDs. Just because the pilots had it, we had to have it. Anyone under 30 years had a PVD lately???? That would have been the perfect example of something to test before putting it into binding contractual language.

I would love to know what the numbers are as well and the categories involved but I do understand why they cannot be shared. And, it is so very important for all voices to participate and be heard. There is a new scheduling survey online right now.

Thank You.... Very well said...

 

[butchord45]

Thank You.... Very well said...

Exactly my point....the great and powerful APFA knows all and sees all and knows what is best for the membership.
Pardon me for being a cynical.....but from the shenanigans that had gone on in the recent past with the APFA......place blame where you feel it belongs.....but when the membership takes the time and money to sue the APFA someone must have done something fishy.

I just have a hard time trusting them when they act like they can and do things so secretly.

The APFA is supposed to be working for the membership. But they sure as hell don't act like they do.

Butch

 

[The Goose]

Exactly my point....the great and powerful APFA knows all and sees all and knows what is best for the membership.
Pardon me for being a cynical.....but from the shenanigans that had gone on in the recent past with the APFA......place blame where you feel it belongs.....but when the membership takes the time and money to sue the APFA someone must have done something fishy.

I just have a hard time trusting them when they act like they can and do things so secretly.

The APFA is supposed to be working for the membership. But they sure as hell don't act like they do.

Butch

Is the APFA taking lessons from Little Jimmy of TWU "fame"?

 

[Maark767]

Exactly my point....the great and powerful APFA knows all and sees all and knows what is best for the membership.
Pardon me for being a cynical.....but from the shenanigans that had gone on in the recent past with the APFA......place blame where you feel it belongs.....but when the membership takes the time and money to sue the APFA someone must have done something fishy.

I just have a hard time trusting them when they act like they can and do things so secretly.

The APFA is supposed to be working for the membership. But they sure as hell don't act like they do.

Butch

You make no sense at all. Your facts are pulled from the air.... I'm moving on.....

 

[AC AA LA FA]

Thank You.... Very well said...

ditto..
youbetcha is a smart cookie..
feed..

 

[Maark767]

ditto..
youbetcha is a smart cookie..
feed..

Totally.....

 

[butchord45]

APFA wouldn't release the survey results to anyone, nor should they. Why should the company know how strongly we all feel about this item or that item? They would use that info to manipulate the Negotiating Team.
It's bad enough when FAs run to the company to tell them what they would give up. APFA doesn't need to be supplying them with the actual numbers. Plus....the amount of FAs who actually do respond is not going to be revealed either...for good reason. Management and the press call APFA's hotline every week along with going to the website. Just look at how many "guests" there are at any given time on the website. There is just no way to share those numbers with the rest of us without management and the press getting them. That would be disastrous for the team. It would pit one group against another and provide way too much leverage to the "outside" world.

APFA may speak in generalities but the actual numbers are kept very close to the vest. And, yes, there are times when any negotiating team has to make decisions that are not part of the majority. That is why it is called collective bargaining. It is for the whole group.

It's kind of like a FA saying that all FAs they fly with want multi day trips. Well....all the FAs they fly with BID multi day trips so of course that is what they hear and think they are the majority. TA FAs, same thing. Also, what some want may cause great harm to others, like unlimited PVDs. Just because the pilots had it, we had to have it. Anyone under 30 years had a PVD lately???? That would have been the perfect example of something to test before putting it into binding contractual language.

I would love to know what the numbers are as well and the categories involved but I do understand why they cannot be shared. And, it is so very important for all voices to participate and be heard. There is a new scheduling survey online right now.

Why should we fill out another survey...when the APFA may or may not pay attention to it? Or if they will or will not even tabulate the results?? ......The reason for my questioning the whole process is this.......The company and the union sat for 3 days talking ....and nothing came of it. Three days and you come out with nothing at all? And have no comment on anything?

Who is to say that day 1 .....one side or the other walked in and said....."We are not prepared to discuss anything....and then they spent the next two days golfing, or more likely......surfing ebay for beanie babies.

Why am I not trusting the whole process? Our last president and treasurer spent four years in office, and chose not to take early openers....then promptly retired at the end of their terms.

Now we are taking a wait and see when the economy recovers and move forward? Something tells me we are looking at 4 more years of inactivity.

Honestly I hope I am wrong ....but I have not seen much yet.

 

[youbetcha]

Why should we fill out another survey...when the APFA may or may not pay attention to it? Or if they will or will not even tabulate the results?? ......The reason for my questioning the whole process is this.......The company and the union sat for 3 days talking ....and nothing came of it. Three days and you come out with nothing at all? And have no comment on anything?

Who is to say that day 1 .....one side or the other walked in and said....."We are not prepared to discuss anything....and then they spent the next two days golfing, or more likely......surfing ebay for beanie babies.

Why am I not trusting the whole process? Our last president and treasurer spent four years in office, and chose not to take early openers....then promptly retired at the end of their terms.

Now we are taking a wait and see when the economy recovers and move forward? Something tells me we are looking at 4 more years of inactivity.

Honestly I hope I am wrong ....but I have not seen much yet.

Early openers have done absolutely nothing for the APA and TWU but cost them an exhorbitant amount of money. They are in the exact same position as APFA with the exception of the money spent.
Being cynical is not cool. Being realistic is very cool. Understanding your surroundings is vital and dealing with cynical attitudes is all part of it. It is very safe to stay in a cynical place. If you are wrong, you win. If you are right, you win. No risk there.

Having gone to the APFA roadshows, I can tell you for a fact that AA was not prepared in any way. They did not send in any of their "decision makers". They acted as if all the scheduling/reserve changes that APFA was proposing were brand new vs. having been discussed with AA for the last 5 years.

All the AA side wanted was to take and take some more. These are the same people who believe that it is only a few who object strongly to the executive bonuses. First off, how do you have over 800 executives???? And why would any flight service manager be paid less than a pilot manager???? A Regional Flight Service manager has many, many more managers under them along with administrative support staff. A pilot manager has, what, 2 or 3 other pilot managers and a very few support staff??

As long as Flight Service management thinks they should earn less than pilot management, we will always be looked at as a less than group. Flight Service has to raise themselves up.

I'm not begrudging the pilots in any way. I'm just saying that we are dealing with flight service management, and if they think they are not worth it, then how are we to convince them, in negotiations, that we are worth it? They have to raise their self worth as well. It is absurd on the management level that a FS Regional Director, with numerous job functiions, should ever be paid less than a chief pilot with minimal job functions.

Hence, the possible reason why AA did not send in anyone who could make a firm decision. APFA sends in their decision makers. For AA to act as if they had never heard of all the scheduling enhancements that APFA put forward, to improve reserve and reserve coverage, to improve the earning capacity of reserves through higher hours, to improve schedule conflict with newer, computer driven plotting of trips by FAs, and on and on, is most disingenuous. This has been discussed for nearly 13 years.

For you to insinuate that anyone at APFA would be out playing golf is simply malicious and ignorant. Sounds like you need to actually get involved and learn what is actually going on vs. rumors and inuendo.

 

[butchord45]

Early openers have done absolutely nothing for the APA and TWU but cost them an exhorbitant amount of money. They are in the exact same position as APFA with the exception of the money spent.
Being cynical is not cool. Being realistic is very cool. Understanding your surroundings is vital and dealing with cynical attitudes is all part of it. It is very safe to stay in a cynical place. If you are wrong, you win. If you are right, you win. No risk there.

Having gone to the APFA roadshows, I can tell you for a fact that AA was not prepared in any way. They did not send in any of their "decision makers". They acted as if all the scheduling/reserve changes that APFA was proposing were brand new vs. having been discussed with AA for the last 5 years.

All the AA side wanted was to take and take some more. These are the same people who believe that it is only a few who object strongly to the executive bonuses. First off, how do you have over 800 executives???? And why would any flight service manager be paid less than a pilot manager???? A Regional Flight Service manager has many, many more managers under them along with administrative support staff. A pilot manager has, what, 2 or 3 other pilot managers and a very few support staff??

As long as Flight Service management thinks they should earn less than pilot management, we will always be looked at as a less than group. Flight Service has to raise themselves up.

I'm not begrudging the pilots in any way. I'm just saying that we are dealing with flight service management, and if they think they are not worth it, then how are we to convince them, in negotiations, that we are worth it? They have to raise their self worth as well. It is absurd on the management level that a FS Regional Director, with numerous job functiions, should ever be paid less than a chief pilot with minimal job functions.

Hence, the possible reason why AA did not send in anyone who could make a firm decision. APFA sends in their decision makers. For AA to act as if they had never heard of all the scheduling enhancements that APFA put forward, to improve reserve and reserve coverage, to improve the earning capacity of reserves through higher hours, to improve schedule conflict with newer, computer driven plotting of trips by FAs, and on and on, is most disingenuous. This has been discussed for nearly 13 years.

For you to insinuate that anyone at APFA would be out playing golf is simply malicious and ignorant. Sounds like you need to actually get involved and learn what is actually going on vs. rumors and inuendo.

You are right......not too many of them golf....

But a few points.....the reason the pilot managers get paid more is because they have less support staff to split their pie with.
Why do they have less support staff.....my guess is because their workforce.....has a lot more adults in it than ours. Not an opinion here are some facts. " I am not doing pre-departures because I am not being paid until the plane pushes." "I always schedule surgery" or "use my intermittent family leave when I am on reserve" I didn't make those quotes up, flight attendants have told me that.

You are also right.....I wasn't able to make the roadshows.....So I appreciate your review since you were there. I wrote the APFA and asked what happened at negotiations and asked for a summary of the roadshows. And you know what they told me.???? Well I'll let you know when they finally respond. Two months and still waiting.

I would much prefer an FU from them, tehn to have them just ignore or choose to not answer emails. So you tell me who is ignorant??

Also if that is actually what happened, why didn't the negotiating committee just walk out day one if they knew AA was not serious? Why waste two more days beating their heads against a desk if it wasn;t going anywhere?

Sorry but I don't blindly follow.....either the APFA or AA.

But I do collect paychecks from AA, in contrast, I PAY the APFA, so for me to ask for a little accountability form them is not too much to ask.

Butch

 

[FlightAttendant4Justice]

What is going to change this time??? APFA's account balance for legal fees, yet again. This is OUR money that is being wasted. OUR money that should be spent on negotiations and representation. What a ridiculous waste of funds. The thought that when I go to work and part of my dues money is going to defend a lawsuit that has been deemed to have no merit on any of the counts just makes me sick.

I still believe that this whole thing does not have much to do with the restructuring at all. I believe it has to do with union busting, lucrative positions (chief counsel, PR Firm, and a plethora of lawyers to suck us dry, along with a puppet set of national officers who would let them run our union)to be sold within a "new" union, and plain old attention getting. For those FAs who are participating in this, I no longer feel any empathy or sympathy for you whatsoever. You have done way too much damage already and now, by working to deplete our monies to safeguard our futures, I now hold you in comtempt. Get over it. You lost. As did our dues treasury.

I understand your anger but it is misplaced anger. You should be angry with your union and your company for misleading you and not following the APFA Constitution. This lawsuit is about your right to vote on your Collective Bargaining Agreements. The APFA Constitution still states, today, that the membership shall be given the complete changes to a Collective Bargaining Agreement prior to the start of the balloting period. That same constitution also states that the time limit for the return of ratification ballots shall be no less than thirty days. It also states that the proposed CBA shall be ratified by an affirmative vote by a majority of those active members in good standing........... It also states that any letters of agreement or side letters entered into between an employer and the APFA during or outside of the Collective Bargaining negotiations which alter the rates of pay, rules or working conditions for covered Flight Attendants employees shall be subject to ratification by the EC. If the EC determines that the alteration is substantial, such letter of agreement or side letter shall be submitted for ratification to the membership covered by the applicable Agreement pursuant to the procedures outlined in this Article XI.

When you take into account that the APFA Constitution is the Supreme Law of the APFA how can you be angry at those that brought the lawsuit against AMR and APFA? Absolutely none of the above mentioned items that were written in the APFA Constitution were adhered to during the 2003 RPA. Our constitutional rights were violated, we did not have the completed language of the RPA in our hands prior to the start of the balloting period, it continued to change throughout the 15 day voting process. We did not have thirty days to return our ballots, it was shortened to a so called 15 day telephonic balloting. We did not ratify this agreement, the majority of the flight attendants voted "NO" on this agreement.

And then the balloting time frame somehow got extended or reopened for 36 hours and the company and the union knew about the outcome of the vote before the extension or reopening started. After all of this was said and done your union leadership did a most dishonorable thing. They signed a Letter of Agreement in May of 2003 binding you to the RPA for six long years. They met with the company behind closed doors and made the decision to bind you to a contract for six long years, a contract that affected your rates of pay, benefits and work rules, without ever allowing you to vote on what was actually contained in that letter of agreement (LOA) This truly does violate another statement in the APFA Constitution and that is the part about letting the membership vote on any letters of agreements or side letters entered into between an employer and the APFA.

Whether you like it or not many things went on with the RPA that could be considered wrong or illegal during the time frame of Mar, Apr and May of 2003. These flight attendants have every right to file this lawsuit. And I dare say if they are so fortunate to win that your future at AMR will be brighter. If these matters are left unchallenged who is to say that the leadership of APFA would not make an attempt to do this again. Left unchallenged it becomes the "Law of the Shop". How would you feel if Laura Gladding signed a Letter of Agreement next week binding you to a CBA for six years without a ratifying vote?

This entire lawsuit is about the RPA, there is no hidden agenda here. Donate if you want a better future or don't if you are happy are with the RPA. The choice is yours but at least read the information before you start criticizing others for trying to do the right thing. Go to www.rpalawsuit and read the documents and then go to www.wewantourmoneyback.net to read about the appeal.

Who knows, maybe some day you can thank them for their efforts.