Reps. Kucinich, Jones to File Suit on Libya

[777 fixer]

I think war was inevitable. It should also be noted that there was a formal Declaration of War voted on by Congress. The point was and remains that there is a cause & effect reaction to EVERY foreign intervention. CIA calls it "blow back".

Sometimes world politics is very similar to the neighborhood you live in. Some people are pretty open and laid back. Others stick there nose into everybody's business and then act shocked when they get punched in the nose or worse. The USA should just be a good neighbor. Basement flood Harry? Sure I can help you. Drain clogged Ethel? NO worries you can borrow my snake. NO Bill I won't go with and confront that a-hole Jim over the two new lawn jockeys. Beside he bought them for me and I got them from the little Chinese guy over on Elm, made a good buck too.

If we led by example perhaps they wouldn't come to kill us.

That's an awful lot of dancing for a simple question.

Here is the simple fact, a country like the USA cannot pretend not be involved if they are engaged in international trade. What happeend in 1941 proves this. And if the US had turned a blind eye to what was happeening in China history would have judged us very harshly.

 

[SparrowHawk]

That's an awful lot of dancing for a simple question.

Here is the simple fact, a country like the USA cannot pretend not be involved if they are engaged in international trade. What happeend in 1941 proves this. And if the US had turned a blind eye to what was happeening in China history would have judged us very harshly.

You absolutely can "Be in the world" but not "Of the World"

WWII is entirely different than Libya, Yemen, Iraq or Afghanistan. With Japan we were trying to influence/bully them and they got pissed off and ultimately nuked, something I have absolutely no problem with. I'm likely here as a result of the decision to nuke Japan as my Dad was training for the invasion of Japan and ended up in the Army of Occupation.

The point and fundamental difference is we had a Declared War, something we haven't had since BTW and this has not served us well. Over time and in response to the Cold War we maintained a strong military presence around the globe which was arguably justified. Pardon me but I was looking on the map and the USSR doesn't exist. We Won the cold war and now it's time to come home.

You want to help Afghanistan? Legalize Drugs here in the US and contract with them to provide the raw ingredients. When capitalism breaks out the desire for Freedom & Liberty follows. Once the money starts flowing the warlords lose their grip and religious fervor doesn't buy designer jeans so the Taliban loses it's ability to recruit young impoverished men in droves as now like all young men they want to look good and get laid. So they get a job in a robust growing economy. I mean hell it has no place to go but up. We don't have to throw 100K worth of men and material, we just need to give them an opportunity to trade with us. It's the age old adage, Money Talks and Bullshite walks"

Why do you think Libya mellowed out and paid off on Pan Am 103? He wanted more international trade. Which he got which created a middle class that now wants his head on a stick. It's just like Jefferson said, When the people fear their government there is tyranny (Kahdahfi, Assad, Mubarak, Saleh etc etc) When the government fear its people there is liberty" The citizens of the Arab Spring are working things out for themselves and we should allow them to do so without intervention. Once they get squared away we can sell them all kinds of crap to help them rebuild. These countries shouldn't be expense items they should be profit centers for US companies.

Let'em be. There is no direct threat from Libya or the others. Besides it's to damn expensive and the cost outweighs the benefit. How many school books can a cruise missile buy?

 

[777 fixer]

That little rant doe not change the fact that using the oil embargo on Japan as an example of interventionist foreign policy is a whole lot of garbage.

 

[777 fixer]

So we or NATO were attacked by Libya?

Two White House lawyers advised him he couldn't do it.

Then Obama said he didn't have to because UN told him, then it was NATO.....so what is it.......he wrong on all counts.

You on here defending this clown who does end runs on the COTUS.

BTW, Congress moving this week to cut off funding......Duh.

You could replace the word Libya with Grenada. Did Grenada attack us or one of our NATO allies? When it's pointed out that the late great Ronald Reagan essentially did the same thing, more than once I might add, people like you go running for the nearest exit.

 

[Dog Wonder]

You could replace the word Libya with Grenada. Did Grenada attack us or one of our NATO allies? When it's pointed out that the late great Ronald Reagan essentially did the same thing, more than once I might add, people like you go running for the nearest exit.

The Comuniss were in Grenada. They were in cohorts with the Cubans and the Russians to create a speck of workers paradise. Plus they threatened wealthy American kids who couldn't get into veterinary school at home and had to go to a Caribbean island.

How did they threaten wealthy America kids you might ask?

By being Communiss of course. They are threatening everything and everybody.

 

[SparrowHawk]

You could replace the word Libya with Grenada. Did Grenada attack us or one of our NATO allies? When it's pointed out that the late great Ronald Reagan essentially did the same thing, more than once I might add, people like you go running for the nearest exit.

There are differences and similarities.

Major difference in Grenada was simple geography. It could have led to another Cuban Missie Crisis had Reagan not acted. It was also over in days not years.

Same for the TWO missiles fired on Libya. Again a once and done thing. That brief attack was widely credited as a defining event that caused Libya to soften its tone and become a better international citizen.

As to the others all he have done with Iraq and Afghanistan is repeat the mistakes of Viet Nam. With Libya and Yemen we IMO run the risk of destabilizing the entire region in like of our involvement elsewhere as mentioned. Currently we are engaged in 4 conflicts in the middle east and not one of them has an end in sight.

Now Obama Lama Ding Dong is supposed to tell a lie to the country later on today so we shall see.

 

[777 fixer]

There are differences and similarities.

Major difference in Grenada was simple geography. It could have led to another Cuban Missie Crisis had Reagan not acted. It was also over in days not years.

Another Cuban missile Crisis? I really doubt that the USSR would have sent nuclear weapons to Grenada.

 

[777 fixer]

Same for the TWO missiles fired on Libya. Again a once and done thing. That brief attack was widely credited as a defining event that caused Libya to soften its tone and become a better international citizen.

Two missiles, what history book are you reading?

 

[SparrowHawk]

Two missiles, what history book are you reading?

Numbers notwithstanding the original point remains in that is was a once and done raid as opposed to a protracted incursion. This type of action is within the construct of the War Powers Act as was Grenada. Where it get murky is when you get into a protracted conflict without the advise and consent of Congress.

The kicker reallis that if you take a narrow interpretation of the COTUS, then the War Powers Act is unconstitutional on its face. The ONLY remedy if the above is true is for Congress to de-fund the incursion.

Personally I'm glad this debate is happening because we seem to have a POTUS who is seemingly hell bent on sending on the path to European style Social Democracy and others who seek to return us to our Constitutional roots.

One very simple reason to scale back our gunboat diplomacy is that no one wants their son or daughter to come home in a box, that's good politics. Second, it's costs a lot less politically to curtail and draw down our overseas empire than it does to vote to cut MediCare in order to balance the budget.

The flip side is that in order to continue as the dominant world power we need to pay our bills. The budget needs to be balanced, The Debt needs to be attacked rigorously. This will help jump start the sluggish economy. Once we get out financial house in order mostly good things will happen.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Boehner: Obama Lacks House Support for Libya
Wednesday, 22 Jun 2011 12:15 PM


WASHINGTON — House Speaker John Boehner says President Barack Obama lacks the support of members of the House for authorizing the U.S. military operation in Libya.

Speaking to reporters Wednesday, Boehner acknowledged the effort by Republican Sens. John McCain and Lindsey Graham to endorse the mission. But he said he doesn't think the House shares that view.

Boehner complained that Obama has not made his case to Congress and the nation for U.S. participation in the NATO-led operation. He said the president hasn't spelled out the national interest in the effort to challenge Moammar Gadhafi.

House Republicans will be meeting behind closed doors Wednesday afternoon to weigh two resolutions — one to authorize the operation and a second to end it. Lawmakers are angry that Obama never sought congressional consent under the law.

Think we're headed for a showdown in Congress?

 

[Ms Tree]

Now they are concerned? Why was Congress not concerned 4.or 5 years ago? Oh yea... Never mind.

 

[777 fixer]

Numbers notwithstanding the original point remains in that is was a once and done raid as opposed to a protracted incursion. This type of action is within the construct of the War Powers Act as was Grenada. Where it get murky is when you get into a protracted conflict without the advise and consent of Congress.

That's not what you were saying before. Your seemed to believe that the action in Libya was "unlawful" because Obama did not get congressinal approval in the first place. Length of time involving said action would then be irrelevant.

 

[Ms Tree]

If my guy does it's OK. If your guy does it it is wrong.

 

[SparrowHawk]

That's not what you were saying before. Your seemed to believe that the action in Libya was "unlawful" because Obama did not get congressinal approval in the first place. Length of time involving said action would then be irrelevant.

If you look at this logically the POTUS has to have the ability to initiate military action in the defense of the United States at a moments notice. I'm not sure how many days we've been involved in Libya, but there comes a point in time where the President must seek the advice and consent of Congress.

Most Constitutional scholars will tell you the War Powers Act is Unconstitutional. Now if that's a correct opinion the people have exactly ONE option and that is de-funding through Congress.

So the real truth is that Barack Obama is within his rights to order the military into action in support of NATO! However, IF you believe the War Powers Act is Constitutional then Obama is operating outside the law and needs to be held accountable.

Truth is the Congress needs to vote to De-Fund this incursion. It's long past time for the issue of the use of military force to be brought to a head.

Personally I think what Reagan did with Libya was an appropriate use of Presidential authority. Obama in Libya and Yemen is at best straddling the line. I'd like to see Congress grow set of testicles and just De-Fund all four military actions and bring our soldiers home NOW!