Remember Patco?

[Bob Owens]

Dea.

Try this:
The Air Controllers Controvery; Lessons from the Patco Strike by Shostak and Skocik ISBN 0-89885-319-2


Look at the copy of the leaflet on page 118.


From what I remember the ALPA went out of their way to help Reagan kill PATCO. Unfortunately the pilots union often feels that they are somehow "different" and that the powers at be would never go after them and that they are the only ones, other than the stockholders, who should make any money in this industry.

ALPA helped Reagan bust Patco and then were given a dose of reality two years later when Reagan did all he could to help Frank Lorenzo over at Continental.

The sad fact is that the unions did not stick together, as they have once again failed to do, and the faulty structure of unioniism that was in place then is still in place now.

 

[Bob Owens]

Also remember that ETO is behind the USA in the development of unions...they are experiencing what we had in the 40's-60's now...just a thought.

[post="204450"][/post]​

Way behind?

I guess thats because instead of a 40 hour work week theirs is 35.

Instead of two weeks being the standard amount of vacation they get 5 weeks.

I guess because they dont have to worry about affordable healthcare and a pension too.

And lets not forget all the labor laws that they have that make it easy to organize too.

Oh yea they are well behind us! In fact they are so far behind us that they are at a place that we never even reached!

Turn around and look the other way, you have your directions reversed.

 

[jimntx]

Just a few of points to add...

1. Yes, most work environment benefits--such as the 8-hour day--are the result of strikes in the past against private industry employers. As has been stated, a strike by government employees is illegal, prima facie, end of discussion.
Someone earlier used the phrase "...the ATC'ers were considered federal employees." They were not considered to be, they were Federal employees. Paychecks issued on the U.S. Treasury, health and retirement benefits that you and I can only dream of, and no deductions for Social Security or Medicare.

2. I knew several of the air traffic controllers at the Houston Center. Their "terrible working conditions" included working only 4 hours out of every 8 hour shift. Every hour "on the screens" was followed by a 1 hour break. The controllers I knew thought they should get more breaks. Unlike most salaried workers, they got paid time-and-a-half for overtime.

3. Oh, did I mention that the average annual salary of a controller in 1976 was between $35,000 and $40,000 per year? Starting salary for controllers was in the neighborhood of $25,000/yr. At the time, I thought I was doing well making about $900/mo. Most of the controllers I knew made in excess of $40,000/yr and thought they were seriously underpaid.

For those who were not born yet or were too young to know, let me give you a little perspective. The general rule of mortgage affordability at that time was 2.5 times your annual salary--assuming normal "other" debt load, such as car payments, etc. So, by that rule, the average air traffic controller could afford a mortgage up to $87,500, Two years before the strike, my brother-in-law who was an upper level manager at Conoco moved to Houston and bought a brand-new 4,500 sq. ft house in a "gated" community for $45,000. He later sold it in the late 80's for $250,000. A friend bought a house in Carmel, CA in 1974 for $54,000. It was sold 2 years ago for $695,000.

Yes, there were, and still are, some serious deficiencies in the computer systems used by ATC. However, the "working conditions and salary" complaints just made the public mad when the realities were revealed. If PATCO had stuck to the safety issues resulting from the crappy computer systems, they would have had the public on their side and Reagan wouldn't have dared do what he did. He and the Congress would have found the money to correct the problems.

 

[Bob Owens]

Just a few of points to add...

1. Yes, most work environment benefits--such as the 8-hour day--are the result of strikes in the past against private industry employers. As has been stated, a strike by government employees is illegal, prima facie, end of discussion.
Someone earlier used the phrase "...the ATC'ers were considered federal employees." They were not considered to be, they were Federal employees. Paychecks issued on the U.S. Treasury, health and retirement benefits that you and I can only dream of, and no deductions for Social Security or Medicare.

2. I knew several of the air traffic controllers at the Houston Center. Their "terrible working conditions" included working only 4 hours out of every 8 hour shift. Every hour "on the screens" was followed by a 1 hour break. The controllers I knew thought they should get more breaks. Unlike most salaried workers, they got paid time-and-a-half for overtime.

3. Oh, did I mention that the average annual salary of a controller in 1976 was between $35,000 and $40,000 per year? Starting salary for controllers was in the neighborhood of $25,000/yr. At the time, I thought I was doing well making about $900/mo. Most of the controllers I knew made in excess of $40,000/yr and thought they were seriously underpaid.

For those who were not born yet or were too young to know, let me give you a little perspective. The general rule of mortgage affordability at that time was 2.5 times your annual salary--assuming normal "other" debt load, such as car payments, etc. So, by that rule, the average air traffic controller could afford a mortgage up to $87,500, Two years before the strike, my brother-in-law who was an upper level manager at Conoco moved to Houston and bought a brand-new 4,500 sq. ft house in a "gated" community for $45,000. He later sold it in the late 80's for $250,000. A friend bought a house in Carmel, CA in 1974 for $54,000. It was sold 2 years ago for $695,000.

Yes, there were, and still are, some serious deficiencies in the computer systems used by ATC. However, the "working conditions and salary" complaints just made the public mad when the realities were revealed. If PATCO had stuck to the safety issues resulting from the crappy computer systems, they would have had the public on their side and Reagan wouldn't have dared do what he did. He and the Congress would have found the money to correct the problems.

[post="204859"][/post]​

Obviously you did not read the book.

"Their "terrible working conditions" included working only 4 hours out of every 8 hour shift. Every hour "on the screens" was followed by a 1 hour break."

I believe that was only during peak hours. Have you ever tried to get on the radio at a major airport during peak hours? Well I have, while Taxiing, and I can say that the pace at which those guys work is unsustainable, they need those breaks or they would go nuts. Try to imagine a pilot, on final, in bad weather, for eight hours, everyday.

Oh, did I mention that the average annual salary of a controller in 1976 was between $35,000 and $40,000 per year?

Perhaps that was due to the 20 hours of mandatory overtime that controllers had to work.

Starting salary for controllers was in the neighborhood of $25,000/yr.

Starting pay was $15,000 when the controllers went on strike in 1981, and it would take a minimum of 7 years to get to $29,000.

And what does all your crap about how much houses went up have to do with anything? What were you jealous that some ATC guy lived next to your rich brother in law? Besides back then mortgage compaies would not consider OT earnings when qualifying for a mortgage.


Are you aware that in the early days unions were considered an illegal conspiracy, and thus were illegal? It was only the inevitability of infraction and the civil disruptions caused by enforcement that forced a change in the law. If government workers in every other Western Democracy can strike why cant they do it here? we are supposed to be the example of Freedom arent we?

You belong in Texas, you and W have a lot in common.

 

[jimntx]

Obviously you did not read the book.

"Their "terrible working conditions" included working only 4 hours out of every 8 hour shift. Every hour "on the screens" was followed by a 1 hour break."

I believe that was only during peak hours. Have you ever tried to get on the radio at a major airport during peak hours? Well I have, while Taxiing, and I can say that the pace at which those guys work is unsustainable, they need those breaks or they would go nuts. Try to imagine a pilot, on final, in bad weather, for eight hours, everyday.

Oh, well. I guess my personal acquaintance with at least 15 of the Houston center controllers who NEVER seemed to be at a loss for time to go on vacations or sit around drinking beer and bellyaching about how hard they worked counts for nothing against your superior knowledge of what goes on outside the tower.

Oh, did I mention that the average annual salary of a controller in 1976 was between $35,000 and $40,000 per year?

Perhaps that was due to the 20 hours of mandatory overtime that controllers had to work.

What overtime? That's a crock. At least as far as the controllers I knew. The OT was not mandatory and they never volunteered for any of it. The way I knew most of the guys was through a community organization that they were always able to participate in. Mostly nights and weekends. But, then you would know better, wouldn't you?

Starting pay was $15,000 when the controllers went on strike in 1981, and it would take a minimum of 7 years to get to $29,000.

If your recollection is correct, and I'm not saying it is...
I was a "professional" making what was considered a more than adequate wage for several years of experience in a job that required a college degree, and I made $350/mo less than the starting salary for a controller. Most of the controllers at the time had no college, and one of them who bellyached the most about his low pay (in excess of $40,000/yr), and who by his own admission NEVER worked OT barely made it out of high school according to his mother.

And what does all your crap about how much houses went up have to do with anything? What were you jealous that some ATC guy lived next to your rich brother in law?

Oh get off your high horse. I was making the point that $35,000/yr was an almost lavish salary in those days. It's called perspective. $50,000/yr seems like a lot of money today until you put in perspective of what a house costs in this day and age, or a trip to the hospital, or the cost of gasoline.

Are you aware that in the early days unions were considered an illegal conspiracy, and thus were illegal? It was only the inevitability of infraction and the civil disruptions caused by enforcement that forced a change in the law.

Thanks for the unneeded history lesson. I was liberal arts major at the undergraduate level. Know all about it.

If government workers in every other Western Democracy can strike why cant they do it here? we are supposed to be the example of Freedom arent we?

You belong in Texas, you and W have a lot in common.

[post="204893"][/post]​

Because it's illegal. Whether I like that fact or not does not change it. When the law changes, then strikes by government employees will be legal. Oh, by the way, jerk boy, I'm a yellow-dog Democrat who still regrets the vote in '88 for a cousin of mine who was running as a Republican for a minor govt. office (he lost, thank god).

I still say that what PATCO did was illegal, and the whining about the working conditions caused their defeat when they could have had the whole ball of wax if they had made sure that the American people knew about the DANGERS of air travel engendered by a crappy ATC system.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

So jimntx, when the Flight Attendants walkout,you're going to cross their picketlines and be a SCAB. What a LOSER! :down:

 

[Bob Owens]

jimntx,Nov 30 2004, 07:12 PM]
Oh, well. I guess my personal acquaintance with at least 15 of the Houston center controllers who NEVER seemed to be at a loss for time to go on vacations or sit around drinking beer and bellyaching about how hard they worked counts for nothing against your superior knowledge of what goes on outside the tower.

So you were jeolous. Why didnt you scab and take their jobs if you thought they had it so good?


Oh, did I mention that the average annual salary of a controller in 1976 was between $35,000 and $40,000 per year?

Yes you did, and I already addressed that claim.

What overtime? That's a crock. At least as far as the controllers I knew. The OT was not mandatory and they never volunteered for any of it. The way I knew most of the guys was through a community organization that they were always able to participate in. Mostly nights and weekends. But, then you would know better, wouldn't you?

And what were their names? Since you knew them so well.

If your recollection is correct, and I'm not saying it is...
I was a "professional" making what was considered a more than adequate wage for several years of experience in a job that required a college degree, and I made $350/mo less than the starting salary for a controller.

And how did you end up here? Did you need your degree for your current occupation?

Most of the controllers at the time had no college, and one of them who bellyached the most about his low pay (in excess of $40,000/yr), and who by his own admission NEVER worked OT barely made it out of high school according to his mother.

And what was his name?

Oh get off your high horse.

Seems that you are the one on the high horse looking down on the ATC.

I was making the point that $35,000/yr was an almost lavish salary in those days. It's called perspective. $50,000/yr seems like a lot of money today until you put in perspective of what a house costs in this day and age, or a trip to the hospital, or the cost of gasoline.
Thanks for the unneeded history lesson. I was liberal arts major at the undergraduate level. Know all about it.

Ah yes, liberal arts makes you an expert on everything right?

Because it's illegal. Whether I like that fact or not does not change it. When the law changes, then strikes by government employees will be legal. Oh, by the way, jerk boy, I'm a yellow-dog Democrat who still regrets the vote in '88 for a cousin of mine who was running as a Republican for a minor govt. office (he lost, thank god).

Jerk boy? Did you learn that phrase earning your degree?

I still say that what PATCO did was illegal, and the whining about the working conditions caused their defeat when they could have had the whole ball of wax if they had made sure that the American people knew about the DANGERS of air travel engendered by a crappy ATC system.

They tried but if you were ever engaged in anything and had media contact you would realize that unless you are paying for the airtime, which few can afford, the Media has their own agenda.Trying to explain the hazards within a 30 second sound bite is not what the media will to even try to attempt.

 

[AMFAMAN]

I actually have the pleasure of working daily with a fired ATC striker. He is now an AA AMT who to this day is very bitter about what when down back then. His descriptions of the job are much closer to Bob's and he worked in a Texas neighbor state. I will fill him in on this topic being discussed tommorrow at work, I'm sure he will get a real kick out of it.