Read It And Weep

[UAL_TECH]

Ualdriver,

I'm glad to see you are in a giving mood.
As it should be. Since you are so quick to capitulate,
ALPA can bare the weight of concessions for the rest of
us lowly worker bees.

Thanks for your sacrifice!!!

Luv U Man!!!
UT

 

[Globetrotter11]

Ualdriver,

Thank you for sharing your notes of your meeting and your thoughts on what is ahead for the employees at United.

It is embarassing to read some of the replies from some of the other posters, but that is the price of having an open, anonomous forum. My take from talking to the majority of employees is that they realize it is better to live to fight another day.

By having a stake in the potential economic upside the employees stand to share part of the 1 billion+ gain from when the fuel prices return to historic levels.

In the meanwhile those that feel they can do better elsewhere, probably should. And for the majority there is a lesson to be learned from USAirways - better to control your own destiny than letting others (judge) do it for you.

 

[mrfish3726]

Globtrotter11,

How naive you are, it's a good laugh though . When has UAL ever shared in the good times for what the employees have done to keep UniTED in the air? Wasn't that what ESOP was all about? They raked in billions from ESOP and you only got a small piece of that after the contracts were all settled. Only to give most of it back in the end when they filed BK on you all. And, look what happened to all the money they told you would be there from ESOP, totally worthless. They need people like you around though for their cause. To fill their coffers since they can't find anyone else to finance them out of the BK.

What is happening at USAIR will be repeated at UniTED, rest a assured! And IF, OR when UAL turns a profit IF EVER AGAIN you can also rest assure that they won't share it among the employee groups as you believe they will. Get your head out of the sand because UAL management is about to pack it up you A$$.

 

[ualdriver]

Globetrotter-

Speaking of embarassing replies, you have two surrounding the one you just put up, one before and one after. As you say, it's the price of having an open forum. I agree with you about the judge thing, but unfortunately I think some are going to figure it out first hand. Unfortunately, we in ALPA have plenty of "burn the house down" guys too. Hopefully we're able to negotiate something in advance......

 

[Globetrotter11]

mrfish3726,

I think you just made my point.... and you did in fact take my advice by moving on. Part of moving on is to stop looking back.

Wishing you much success,

Globetrotter11

PS. I think that the United employees will do just fine looking out for their own
future. Just as you might choose to do in your new endavours.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Globtrotter11,

How naive you are, it's a good laugh though . When has UAL ever shared in the good times for what the employees have done to keep UniTED in the air? Wasn't that what ESOP was all about? They raked in billions from ESOP and you only got a small piece of that after the contracts were all settled. Only to give most of it back in the end when they filed BK on you all. And, look what happened to all the money they told you would be there from ESOP, totally worthless. They need people like you around though for their cause. To fill their coffers since they can't find anyone else to finance them out of the BK.

What is happening at USAIR will be repeated at UniTED, rest a assured! And IF, OR when UAL turns a profit IF EVER AGAIN you can also rest assure that they won't share it among the employee groups as you believe they will. Get your head out of the sand because UAL management is about to pack it up you A$$.

[post="191555"][/post]​

Thanks Fish,

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Been-There-Done-That......

UT

 

[UAL_TECH]

Globetrotter-

Speaking of embarassing replies, you have two surrounding the one you just put up, one before and one after. As you say, it's the price of having an open forum. I agree with you about the judge thing, but unfortunately I think some are going to figure it out first hand. Unfortunately, we in ALPA have plenty of "burn the house down" guys too. Hopefully we're able to negotiate something in advance......

[post="191561"][/post]​

I didn't light the fire, but I've been helping with the hose.
The Goose has been quacking all night and you just keep
putting scotch in my hydrant and tell me it's water.
All the while you have been in 'Autoerotic Asphyxia' with the Goose.

If the house burns down at least we'll have something to eat
(if we wash it well).

:blink: UT

 

[The Ronin]

UalDriver just busts me up....I can see it now....we're on the Titanic, the bow is listing 30 degrees and Ual runs up, kinda of out of breath, "I just had a meeting with the Captain, and he assured me we have AT LEAST 2 hrs to live..." 5 minutes later the water is up to our necks..."You were saying???" Of course before we go under..."Hey ahhh, Ual...uhmmm, you seen that goose around???...maybe I could...uhmm, ya know"......LOL

 

[uafa21]

Ok here's what we do. Let's give them, UAL, a 1 year contract with a 10% accross the board wage cut. If during that year fuel prices go back down to decent levels we go back to our same salary. If ticket prices increase, we go back to our same salary. We don't need to negociate long term contracts with these idiots.

Anyone, I mean anyone can see that all that needs to be done is a 10% increase in ticket prices. Let the chips fall where they fall. We are in BK we can return planes. Also forget this crap about 3 class 57's. That's a complete joke.

 

[The Ronin]

I got one better from managements point of view:
current pilots pay= BAD.....UsAir pilots wage=Good

current f/a's, old, cranky, and too expensive= BAD
replacements young, naive and cheap=Good

maintenance= bull headed, lazy, stupid=BAD
outsourced maintenance=VERY VERY GOOD

management small bonuses=BAD
management big bonuses=Good


The Plan....no more bad...ALL GOOD

 

[WorldTraveler]

NH/BB,
I'm so glad you realize that the airlines are in the position to be extorting whatever they want from labor. I mean the reality is that things aren't turning around. That is why I can't believe that people don't see that is exactly what Delta is doing right now and the reason why they will win is because bankruptcy is far more punitive than any concessions outside of bankruptcy. I mean, after all, how many US employees said they wanted to take their chances with the judge and look what they got? They were able to save themselves 2% for 2 months - now that is real union power at work. The union representing migrant worker tomato pickers in Arizona could do better than that.

Yes, Ronin, you are right. The benchmark has been set by US and UA will follow right after the fine example. And UA knows they have to act fast because if they don't things could possibly improve and the leverage is gone.
On the other hand, Kamakaze Air, I mean Independence, will be a pain in UA's side for a good long time to come. Brand new airplanes coming, a failing business plan, and the possibility of using bankruptcy to work even harder to beat UA up if things don't turn around. Sounds like a dream come true for UA employees, don't you think?

 

[ualdriver]

Ronin-

You are so CLUELESS it's amazing. First of all, if we were on the Titanic together, I'd be making reasonable attempts to minimize the damage being done or at least rescue as many people as possible. You'd be running around like a moron screaming "The end is near," while you burn the ship and lifeboats down since in your opinion everyone's going to die anyway. Yet another moronic post from the Ronin. Keep 'em coming. At least they're entertaining to Fish.

UAFA21-

I definitely agree with your point. It would be a waste on our (labor's) part to offer up ANY concession under a time where oil is 55 bucks a barrel, only to have oil come back down and our paycuts stick while a bunch of senior management get bonuses. Believe it or not, I was told UAL would be making money right now were it not for unusually high oil prices. IF concessions are agreed to, in my opinion they ought to be tied to company performance directly, in particular we should have some sort of "me too" clause where anytime senior management get bonuses, we do too. Your 10% suggestion is probably not far from the mark. If they come at us asking for around 500M as they said they would in the past, it equates to about 13% across the board.

The 757 P.S. thing, if it works, might turn out to be relatively profitable. The markets where it is being deployed are the few markets where many people buy first class/business class seats regularly. Hence, the reduction in seats and the investment in putting all these fancy seats in. If we still have the same amount of people buying premium products from us in those city pairs, it will work well. If people in those city pairs stop buying a disproportionate amount of first/business seats as has happened in other markets, then you're right, it will be a losing proposition. But so far the latter hasn't been the case I guess.

And to all, when you read Fish's posts, keep in mind this is from a guy who is working at an airline that is in financial distress now, and will be worst off if UAL survives. I would argue that Frontier is in big trouble right now as yields and revenue are declining and TED is stealing market share from them in a huge way. Of course he's going to tell UAL employees don't co-operate, burn the house down, etc., etc. It's in HIS interest to see UAL fail. If UAL fails, Frontier prospers and Fish keeps his job. If UAL prospers, there is a good chance Frontier will not survive long term and Fish loses yet another job. Keep that in mind when you read what he writes.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I almost forgot to mention the prospect of picking up a couple hundred million dollars of worthless tickets if US folds now that the government has just passed regulations saying that airlines will have to continue to carry each others' passengers if one should fail (the current law was set to expire). There's probably a reason Delta let its DCA leases lapse.

ualdriver,
I'm not mocking your efforts but I think you do need to realize the tremendous power that management has now and how difficult it will be for the legacies, esp. those in the most desperate financial shape such as UA and US which are in bankruptcy. In an industry that has been legendary for labor-management conflict (kinda hard to imagine in a service industry, huh?) it is almost Utopian to think that current employees can be asked to take deep concessions over and over again and still remain loyal to their company and focused on providing service. There will always be a last man standing, but you shouldn't be surprised when people around you start falling.

 

[ualdriver]

WorldTraveler-

I won't be surprised when people start falling. Some have already. Depending on what my "ask" will be, maybe I will too.

As for management coming at us "again and again," I think everyone has a "line in the sand" that they probably won't cross for whatever reason (backup career available, I'm not working for a wage that low on principle, I think management is over-reaching, etc., etc.). But I liken to what is going on now to an analogy that I face often at work. It's not uncommon to be taxiing out from the gate at ORD with thunderstorms in the area. People will poke their head up to the cockpit and ask if there are any delays, and at that point there are none that I know of based upon what was happening right then. Then I pushback and see 15 planes lined up for departure, and based on that NEW information I have to tell the passengers that we're going to be delayed about 20 minutes. Then I get to the #5 position and ATC closes the westbound departure corridor and now it's going to be another 30 minutes until those cells move and departures can start rolling. Finally, after another 30 minutes and a series of me having to go back to the passengers again and again with more bad news about delays that are completely beyond my control, off we go. In this hypothetical example I grease the landing upon arrival, which is received by thunderous applause from the passengers who quickly forget about the previous delays. Beautiful women make me offers I can't refuse as they exit the airplane, but alas I have to tell them I am married (he-he).

Where was I? Now I guess if I were a cynical passenger who didn't know any better, I could say that the Captain knew all about these delays all along at the gate and was just outright lying from the beginning. But maybe a frequent flyer would explain that the Captain was making estimates based upon the current information and sometimes circumstances change and updated information needs to be presented, even though it's bad news. Same applies here. Circumstances at the airline have changed over the past several months-oil at $55 barrel and an update to "the plan" is going to need to be made. I guess you could argue that our management team had some sort of crystal ball and they knew oil was going to hit record highs so they take pleasure in having to make further cuts. I doubt it personally, but if that's what you honestly believe, then that's you're right and you can vote accordingly.

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, ualdriver, I don't think your management is out to get you or to run the company into oblivion. However, there is no doubt that management is firmly in control of the economic situation at the airlines right now in contrast to the 90s up until 9/11 when labor seemed to be capable of successfully extracting whatever they wanted from management. The table has turned but there are far too many airline employees who got real comfortable with their lifestyle and are not willing to give it up; after all 10 years is long enough for most of us to think that our economic situation is stable and sustainable.

I think we're really on the same page here. United will have no choice but to use every trick in the book to get its costs down and will follow some of the examples US has left for the industry. As the two players in bankruptcy, UA and US are in the most desperate shape; US and UA's survival is most threatened so employees are going to be much more willing to give, esp. among the pilot group. At the same time, management at all legacy airlines are having to run their airlines better than they ever have before. Some have learned what needs to be done and can execute a plan to get where they need to be without totally alienating their employees; others have not learned and will not.

The winners in the industry will be those that can turn their business around and do so without totally losing the faith and confidence of their employees. Ultimately, each airline and its employees have to decide whether they will succeed or not.