Question on Pilot Pension Termination

[diogenes]

[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 1204 PM ONTHESTREET wrote:

I don't think ALPA ever told other groups what to do. Chip is NOT Alpa. He speaks for himself, not me, or any other pilot. Do not confuse Chips "suggestions" with that of the pilot group.


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[/blockquote]
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With the sole exception of when Chip was published in the CLT Observer, I didn't see anyone on this board from ALPA debate him on the major themes of his arguments. It appears to me most were all to happy to let Chip do the heavy lifting for them. While Chip may not be representational of U ALPA (and I know too many fine pilot folks at U to think he is) the fact he goes unchecked makes it appear that he is.

 

[autofixer]

Like I have said on another thread on this board, who cares if the other groups support the pilots? Are you type rated on our equipment? It would take the company at least 40 days to hire and train scab pilots. Does the company or do you have 40 days cash reserves? I would love to see the company's insurance rating, with new hire pilots flying as captains. I am sure that the FAA would look the other way while the expedited training was going on too? Yeah, sure! This is the one time in recent history the pilots have an opportunity to put an end to this endless nonsense. Now they have little to loose...a dead end job with little or no retirement and possibly more pay cuts.

 

[ClueByFour]

It looks to me as if the PBGC can either distress terminate the pension on it's own. If that happens, it's not entirely clear if the company has to file a 1113 motion. Further, even if the company did have to file a 1113 motion, it's also not entirely clear that the judge would not impose the contract breach as a 1113e (temporary) thing, and give the parties time to negotiate a new plan or plans to make the pilot group whole again before going to 1113c (abrogation) which would allow for self-help.[BR][BR]Now, that's not the outcome that the ALPA MEC is going to tell it's membership about, most notably because that scenario would preclude a strike (legally, anyway). But it could very well happen. The trick, of course, is the company has to convince the PBGC to pull the trigger of its own accord.[BR][BR]

 

[diogenes]

[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 3:09:46 PM autofixer wrote:

Now they have little to loose...a dead end job with little or no retirement and possibly more pay cuts.
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[/blockquote]
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Yeah, that's what we're faced with,too. Hate it for both of us

Thing is, that's what we were faced with when Chippie was advising us to take one for the team.

I'm not that arrogant - my advise is to act in YOUR best interests.

 

[Biffeman]

The company is not in violation of your contract if the PBGC distress terminates your contract. ERISA laws allow them to do that. If and when if pension gets terminated the company is obligated to negoitate a new pension plan because it is in your CBA.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

MLT[BR]Your calculations, as I suspected, are INCORRECT.[BR]Pilot retirements are based on the AVERAGE of the best 3 out of your last 10 years. NO PILOT even made close to that for the last 3 years, as the last raise was only in effect for 1 month. Also, by the time most pilots retire, it will be long past the 10 year cutoff. You, and others in this forum should really stick to subjects you jave a clue about, and not try to "preach" to pilots or any other group.

 

[pitguy]

[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 4:12:33 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

You, and others in this forum should really stick to subjects you jave a clue about, and not try to "preach" to pilots or any other group.
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I reply:

Wow does that sound familiar. The shoe is on the other foot now.

-Live to fight another day.

 

[mlt]

Clarifications:[BR][BR]What your retirement was to date--you kept. The 50% integration stops a further accrual for any pilot with 21 years or more retirement. Any pilot with less than 21 years keeps the 2.4% accrual through Dec. 31, 2002, then starts the accrual rate at 1.8% until the integration hits 50. [BR][BR]Pre-parity a topped out captain was in the $185. per hour range; flys 85 hours per month, with 25 years of service. The parity +1% had the following effect on ALPA's pension payout:[BR][BR]$185. (x) 85 hours (x) 12 months =$188,700[BR]If this figure was constant in a pilots final average earning years the retirement would be calculated as follows:[BR][BR][STRONG]Pre-parity annual retirement:[/STRONG][BR]$188,700 (x) .024 (x) 25 years of service = $113,220 [BR][BR]Parity[BR]16% Increase[BR]$214.60 (x) 85 hours (x) 12 months =$218,892[BR][BR]17% Increase[BR]$251.08 (x) 85 hours (x) 12 months =$256,103[BR][BR]Utilizing 1 year of pre-parity and 2 years of post-parity to determine final average earnings =[BR]$663,695 divided by 3 =$221,231.66[BR][BR][STRONG]Post-parity annual retirement[/STRONG][BR]$221,231.66 (x) .024 (x) 25 years =$132,738.60[BR][BR][STRONG]Post-parity realizes an annual increase in a pilot's retirement [/STRONG](132,738.60 (-) 113,220)=[STRONG]$19,518.60 annually[/STRONG].[BR][BR]If this pilot lives to age 85 (25 years of retirement) the increase for one pilot is $487,965. Now multiply that figure by possibly 500 pilots who will be retiring soon and you can see where the burden on the pension fund started. [BR][BR]I'm sory I do not want to see you lose your pension, but your annual increase is more than my entire pension. I can't give anymore--the solution rests with you.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 4:17:52 PM mlt wrote:
[P][BR]My analysis stands.[BR][BR][BR]$663,695 divided by 3 =$221,231.66[BR][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]And, your analysis is STILL WRONG!

 

[mlt]

[BR]My analysis stands.[BR][BR][BR]$663,695 divided by 3 =$221,231.66[BR]

 

[chipmunn]

Biff & MLT:

Both of your comments are wrong, but it doesn't matter because without an agreement satisfactory to ALPA the airline will liquuidate in short otder.

I suggest you do what I have done and aggressively seek other employment.

Chip

 

[Biffeman]

Chip can you ever accept the fact that you are wrong? I attened a PBGC workshop given by them, I have attended section 1113 bk workshops given by IAM's attorneys. Chip those people are experts and you are not. The PBGC can distress your pension and there is nothing you can do.