Question on Pilot Pension Termination

[mrplanes]

pitguy:

He AGREED to a reduced pension benefit in our LOA 84 which was the second round of givebacks. The one in which we AGREED to give up the lump sum. How could he agree to that if there was NO MONEY? He didn't say "we have no money and must terminate the pension". He already AGREED to it in December. All we want is what he AGREED to. What don't you understand about that? Now he wants to renege on that by substituting some "alterative" plan that has the company terminating the original plan and putting in something LESS than what he agreed to. That is pure and simple a hosing. He has the money or he would not have ageed to it in the first place. That is the problem.

You can believe what you want to about the will of us. And believe me, I am all for what Dave has done with the C11 process. In fact, I think it has been masterful. But he purposely either misled or lied to us in the giveback agreement that led the other employee groups in December. What we want is his committment to that agreement. HE made the agreement. WE signed it. Now live up to it or we stop flying until he does. And that is NOT an idle threat. Enough is Enough. By the way, I don't want any of your kids money. I only want what Dave AGREED to in the negotiated Letter of Agreement 84.

mr

 

[pitguy]

Please get real. There is no plan "B" except Ch-7. There is no place to get the money. The other employee groups are not giving it up since most are teetering on personal bankruptcy. I ask you. What do you want from the company? They have no money and can not get it since they need to direct funds that are available to secure the government backed loans. So let us hear what your plans are. This is nuts. This is like trying rob a homeless person who has no money so you just keep beating him senseless until he coughs some up. Little do you realize he will never do it because he can't.

--I got it. We can just raise fares. Like just putting on a 'pilot retirement' surcharge.


-- The sick part is I believe you even want the couple bucks out of my kids piggy bank. Gosh man. Get a hold of yourself.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

If management is reading this, and I hope they are, They'd better realize that there are only two choices here: 1) find a way to fund the pilot retirement plan, or 2) shut the doors. That's it. ALPA won't stand for anything else, and they shouldn't. If option #2 happens, assets will be held in limbo FOR YEARS, while this thing works itself out in court. Dave's future as the saviour of U and maybe the US airline industry will be over, and he'll NEVER be able able to work in the airline business again, at least if unions are involved. RSA's place in line as the #1 creditor may be supplanted by the US government, as they sieze assets to pay retirements (this is such a precedent setting issue that anything is possible). This thing is mushrooming into one huge atomic cloud of destruction. Dave needs to pursue a plan to restore the retirement plans as diligently as he has worked other issues at U, before this thing is dead.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 2:09:21 PM pitguy wrote:
[P]Thanks for the reply. We all know by now that agreements around here on not worth the paper they are written on. Issues to that effect have been displayed to prove it. Now I still don't understand where the money is to come from. Forget what Dave said, but please explain where the money will come from. Bearing in mind now that we still need the 7 percent profitability margin.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]There is a cost of doing business. Employee retirement is one of them. They can improve the business model as they see fit to pay for it. There are ways to fund this, and if management pursued them in the same way they pursued our paychecks they would make it work. And if you think that the pilots won't shut this airline down over this, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[pitguy]

Thanks for the reply. We all know by now that agreements around here on not worth the paper they are written on. Issues to that effect have been displayed to prove it. Now I still don't understand where the money is to come from. Forget what Dave said, but please explain where the money will come from. Bearing in mind now that we still need the 7 percent profitability margin.

 

[pitguy]

oldiebutgoody,

So, let me understand this then. You have no 'do-able' solution. It just has to happen even though it can't. Ok then lets take the attitude of "I will take my planes and go home". I do not see anyone buying into this foolishness.


-- ""You gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them.""


-- Very few would walk out the door. But the tough talk might be able to help you """if""" we had some cash.

 

[mrplanes]

"Forget what Dave said"? what the heck. How am I supposed to forget what he said. Read this:

By DEBORAH ECKERT

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
WASHINGTON -- US Airways Group Inc. (UAWGQ) revised upward its projections for operating revenue and net income for 2003 through 2009, according to court papers obtained Monday by Dow Jones Newswires.

The airline, which filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in August, said in the documents filed Friday that it expects to swing to a net income of $127 million on revenue of $8.24 billion in 2004 from a projected $225 million loss on revenue of $7.22 billion in 2003.

In projections filed with the court last month, the airline had estimated net income of $122 million on revenue of $8.11 billion for 2004, compared to a $229 million loss on revenue of $7.13 billion in 2003.

US Airways has said it's aiming to emerge from Chapter 11 on March 31.

A spokesman for the company couldn't be reached Monday for comment on the improved projections.

US Airways included the adjusted projections in a new Chapter 11 plan disclosure statement it filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Alexandria, Va. on Friday. In the projections, US Air said its net will continue to grow through 2007 - when it would reach $405 million - and then decrease slightly to $362 million in 2008 and $344 million in 2009.

It also predicts revenue will grow to $8.81 billion in 2005, and continue to grow through 2009, when it would reach $9.68 billion.

Friday's court filing also estimates that the company's equity value will range between $400 million and $670 million after it emerges from Chapter 11. This implies a value of $8.30 a share for the new Class A common stock it will issue under the plan, the filing said.

In a court filing last month, US Airways predicted an equity value of between $425 million and $645 million, implying a value of $8.38 per Class A common share.

As reported, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Stephen Mitchell approved US Airways' amended disclosure statement Friday, giving the company the green light to send the plan out to creditors for their approval. Judge Mitchell is scheduled to consider approving the plan at a hearing March 18.

Also in Friday's filing, US Airways said it will seek to resolve issues related to its pension plan - to which it may need to contribute $3.1 billion from 2003 through 2009 - both through legislation and negotiations with the union representing its pilots.

The airline said that both alternatives would result in average annual funding requirements of $325 million. US Airways previously has said it will be required to contribute $3.1 billion into pension plans from 2003 through 2009, including $126 million in 2003 and $890 million in 2004.

US Airways said on Friday that it's pursuing a legislative solution in cooperation with its pilots union to implement an amortized pension funding plan.

"If those efforts are unsuccessful, the company will have no choice but to terminate the existing pilot pension program and begin formal negotiations with the Air Line Pilots Association on an agreeable replacement plan, with an anticipated completion of March 2003," the company said in a press release.

The company recently failed to secure approval from the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. - a federal pension insurer that guarantees payment of basic pension benefits for workers - to stretch out its pension payments over 30 years. US Airways later moved to achieve the same result through the introduction of a Senate bill by two Pennsylvania Republicans.

US Airways said the PBGC has filed 21 claims against it and its affiliates, totaling $3.8 billion. The claims relate to seven defined-benefit plans sponsored by the companies, and represent a potential unfunded pension liability that could arise if the plans are ended.

US Airways said it's negotiating with the PBGC over the claims and that it believes the claim amounts will be "significantly less" than the amount now being requested in the claims.

But the company did say the ultimate resolution of the claims could "materially and adversely affect" the amount of recovery its other unsecured creditors wind up getting under its reorganization.

- Deborah Eckert; Dow Jones Newswires; 202-628-7675; [email protected]

Updated January 20, 2003 3:51 p.m. EST



According to that he will put in 325 mill per year into to the plan. Where is that coming from? Its called revenue. And if he doesn't put it in to the plan, guess where it goes. Point is that he has the money available to do EXACTLY what he told us he would do and now he is trying to wiggle out of it. That won't stand. Pilots understand business. We also understand when we are getting hosed vs. legitimate needs of the corporation. We have done our part. It is time for Dave to live up to his committment. If he does, we will have a kick *** airline. If he doesn't, we may not have an airline at all. We are solidified on this issue pitguy. We have given Dave what he asked. Now he needs to follow up on his committment.

mr

 

[pitguy]

There is no way the pilots will let the doors shut on this issue. You know and I know there is no cash to support this retirement plan any longer. Pilots in general do understand business and they will not shut this place down since they truly do realize there is no options for the company. Gee, who wants to be unemployed and now have a reduced retirement?. Bluff all you want, but it does you no good. There is no money and the pilots will not walk off the job. No way, no how. End of story. You can cry all you want, but it is better to "Live to fight another day". Let's all wipe our tears and start to rebuild.

 

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/21/2003 214 PM mrplanes wrote:

"Forget what Dave said"? what the heck. How am I supposed to forget what he said. Read this:

By DEBORAH ECKERT

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
WASHINGTON -- US Airways Group Inc. (UAWGQ) revised upward its projections for operating revenue and net income for 2003 through 2009, according to court papers obtained Monday by Dow Jones Newswires.

The airline, which filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in August, said in the documents filed Friday that it expects to swing to a net income of $127 million on revenue of $8.24 billion in 2004 from a projected $225 million loss on revenue of $7.22 billion in 2003.

In projections filed with the court last month, the airline had estimated net income of $122 million on revenue of $8.11 billion for 2004, compared to a $229 million loss on revenue of $7.13 billion in 2003.

US Airways has said it's aiming to emerge from Chapter 11 on March 31.

A spokesman for the company couldn't be reached Monday for comment on the improved projections.

US Airways included the adjusted projections in a new Chapter 11 plan disclosure statement it filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Alexandria, Va. on Friday. In the projections, US Air said its net will continue to grow through 2007 - when it would reach $405 million - and then decrease slightly to $362 million in 2008 and $344 million in 2009.

It also predicts revenue will grow to $8.81 billion in 2005, and continue to grow through 2009, when it would reach $9.68 billion.

Friday's court filing also estimates that the company's equity value will range between $400 million and $670 million after it emerges from Chapter 11. This implies a value of $8.30 a share for the new Class A common stock it will issue under the plan, the filing said.

In a court filing last month, US Airways predicted an equity value of between $425 million and $645 million, implying a value of $8.38 per Class A common share.

As reported, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Stephen Mitchell approved US Airways' amended disclosure statement Friday, giving the company the green light to send the plan out to creditors for their approval. Judge Mitchell is scheduled to consider approving the plan at a hearing March 18.

Also in Friday's filing, US Airways said it will seek to resolve issues related to its pension plan - to which it may need to contribute $3.1 billion from 2003 through 2009 - both through legislation and negotiations with the union representing its pilots.

The airline said that both alternatives would result in average annual funding requirements of $325 million. US Airways previously has said it will be required to contribute $3.1 billion into pension plans from 2003 through 2009, including $126 million in 2003 and $890 million in 2004.

US Airways said on Friday that it's pursuing a legislative solution in cooperation with its pilots union to implement an amortized pension funding plan.

"If those efforts are unsuccessful, the company will have no choice but to terminate the existing pilot pension program and begin formal negotiations with the Air Line Pilots Association on an agreeable replacement plan, with an anticipated completion of March 2003," the company said in a press release.

The company recently failed to secure approval from the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. - a federal pension insurer that guarantees payment of basic pension benefits for workers - to stretch out its pension payments over 30 years. US Airways later moved to achieve the same result through the introduction of a Senate bill by two Pennsylvania Republicans.

US Airways said the PBGC has filed 21 claims against it and its affiliates, totaling $3.8 billion. The claims relate to seven defined-benefit plans sponsored by the companies, and represent a potential unfunded pension liability that could arise if the plans are ended.

US Airways said it's negotiating with the PBGC over the claims and that it believes the claim amounts will be "significantly less" than the amount now being requested in the claims.

But the company did say the ultimate resolution of the claims could "materially and adversely affect" the amount of recovery its other unsecured creditors wind up getting under its reorganization.

- Deborah Eckert; Dow Jones Newswires; 202-628-7675; [email protected]

Updated January 20, 2003 3:51 p.m. EST



According to that he will put in 325 mill per year into to the plan. Where is that coming from? Its called revenue. And if he doesn't put it in to the plan, guess where it goes. Point is that he has the money available to do EXACTLY what he told us he would do and now he is trying to wiggle out of it. That won't stand. Pilots understand business. We also understand when we are getting hosed vs. legitimate needs of the corporation. We have done our part. It is time for Dave to live up to his committment. If he does, we will have a kick *** airline. If he doesn't, we may not have an airline at all. We are solidified on this issue pitguy. We have given Dave what he asked. Now he needs to follow up on his committment.

mr
----------------
[/blockquote]

Reading the above...WOW! What an epiphany! What happened to the "doom and gloom", almost off the cliff airline, and straight to liquidation? We have all been Hosed...you are not alone on that thought.

 

[mlt]

Pitguy,[BR]I wasn't aware the mechanics had their pension frozen. Are you able to provide details? Is it across the board, certain age, seniority?

 

[pitguy]

Please note the 'mechanics and related' just had their retirements all frozen in their latest round II solution.

 

[chipmunn]

The federal government forces a pilot to retire at age 60, whereas every other employee can work until age 65 before collecting retirement.

The PBGC thus will discriminate against a pilot because the PBGC minimum retirement at age 64 is $44,000 and at age 60 is $28,000 per year.

Just another inequity pouring "salt into the wounds" of the pilot group and strengthening pilot resolve to not terminate the ALPA pension plan, regardless of what happens in the future.

Meanwhile, the Company is demanding ALPA terminate its pension plan before the airline would begin discussion on a replacement plan.

How many union employees would open up their contract and cancel their retirement first, without a meaningful replacement option?

Chip

 

[pitguy]

The mechanics and related pensions were do increases, but have been frozen for a minimum of the duration of the latest contract. The mechanics pension is frozen at a value of $70 per year of service. The sores and utility are somewhat less. No one getting rich here. We will not keep up with the cost of living in our wages either. No place but down.

 

[mlt]

Chip,[BR]I guess I am being discriminated against also as the PBGC has a special rule that airline pilots are able to collect at age 50, while I have to wait until age 55.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 4:13:46 PM mlt wrote:
[P]Chip,[BR]I guess I am being discriminated against also as the PBGC has a special rule that airline pilots are able to collect at age 50, while I have to wait until age 55.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]I guess you're right. Better sue 'em.