Possible NMB Rulings

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association​

 
 
 
 
[SIZE=11pt]Friends[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]As we wait for the NMB to rule on the single carrier and the TWU/IAM Association, your organizing committee felt we needed to give you an update on what to expect going forward. There are three likely things that should come out of the NMB ruling.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]1. The NMB could simply rule that we have an Association, and no vote is needed, although we see this as unlikely because the TWU/IAM did not originally ask for this.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]2. The NMB could agree with Local 591 that the TWU/IAM Association has no standing to be on the ballot due to a lack of standing or insufficient interest. This is what should be done, but given the fact that AA, TWU & IAM all want the Association, we feel ultimately the NMB will give the people paying the money to the congressmen and senators the association that they want.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]3. The NMB could rule that the Association is eligible to be on the ballot and set an election to commence after a thirty day period for interveners. This is the most likely scenario base on what we know of the NMB.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt] Depending on which one of the preceding scenarios that come into play we have a plan to get AMFA on the property.  As it stands today, if Scenarios 1 or 2 occur we will continue the current drive due to the fact that no election will occur and no bar will be set. None of our cards expire before the middle of January on 2015 and we are confident that given this timeframe and circumstances which will prevail after this ruling that obtaining the necessary cards should not be a problem.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]If Scenario number 3 occurs, we will begin a write in campaign, due to the fact that it's unlikely we could acquire the required cards in the time that remains before the election. This process is simple, if the Association is allowed on the ballot we will each receive a ballot with three choices.  The first will be the {TWU/IAM Association} the second being {Other} and the third is {No Representation}.  All you will have to do is select other, and type in AMFA if you are voting via the Internet.  If you are using the phone, you follow the prompts to select other, and clearly speak either A M F A or Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. These rules can be found in section 13 of the NMB representation manual at the nmb.govhttp://nmb.gov/.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]We currently have more than 6000 AMFA cards signed for the combined group. If these supporters simply follow thru and select other and vote AMFA, we will win going away.  This is based on the fact that 20 to 25% of the membership will not even cast a ballot leaving our supporters as the majority. Finally it is important to point out that if we go to a vote, the winner will get a two year bar before anyone can challenge them.  This coupled with a new contract, means it will be years before we get another chance to gain back what we have lost over the last 10 years.  We simply cannot afford to let the TWU or the Association screw this up.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]Your AA/US Air AMFA organizing committee[/SIZE]

 

[Tim Nelson]

 

Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association​

 
 
 
 
[SIZE=11pt]Friends[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]As we wait for the NMB to rule on the single carrier and the TWU/IAM Association, your organizing committee felt we needed to give you an update on what to expect going forward. There are three likely things that should come out of the NMB ruling.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]1. The NMB could simply rule that we have an Association, and no vote is needed, although we see this as unlikely because the TWU/IAM did not originally ask for this.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]2. The NMB could agree with Local 591 that the TWU/IAM Association has no standing to be on the ballot due to a lack of standing or insufficient interest. This is what should be done, but given the fact that AA, TWU & IAM all want the Association, we feel ultimately the NMB will give the people paying the money to the congressmen and senators the association that they want.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]3. The NMB could rule that the Association is eligible to be on the ballot and set an election to commence after a thirty day period for interveners. This is the most likely scenario base on what we know of the NMB.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt] Depending on which one of the preceding scenarios that come into play we have a plan to get AMFA on the property.  As it stands today, if Scenarios 1 or 2 occur we will continue the current drive due to the fact that no election will occur and no bar will be set. None of our cards expire before the middle of January on 2015 and we are confident that given this timeframe and circumstances which will prevail after this ruling that obtaining the necessary cards should not be a problem.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]If Scenario number 3 occurs, we will begin a write in campaign, due to the fact that it's unlikely we could acquire the required cards in the time that remains before the election. This process is simple, if the Association is allowed on the ballot we will each receive a ballot with three choices.  The first will be the {TWU/IAM Association} the second being {Other} and the third is {No Representation}.  All you will have to do is select other, and type in AMFA if you are voting via the Internet.  If you are using the phone, you follow the prompts to select other, and clearly speak either A M F A or Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. These rules can be found in section 13 of the NMB representation manual at the nmb.govhttp://nmb.gov/.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]We currently have more than 6000 AMFA cards signed for the combined group. If these supporters simply follow thru and select other and vote AMFA, we will win going away.  This is based on the fact that 20 to 25% of the membership will not even cast a ballot leaving our supporters as the majority. Finally it is important to point out that if we go to a vote, the winner will get a two year bar before anyone can challenge them.  This coupled with a new contract, means it will be years before we get another chance to gain back what we have lost over the last 10 years.  We simply cannot afford to let the TWU or the Association screw this up.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]Your AA/US Air AMFA organizing committee[/SIZE]
 

I don't believe that is correct. After the NMB certifies a group, it establishes a 2 year bar.  With or without an election, the Association can be certified, and if it is certified, there is a 2 year bar. I'm not aware of any case where a two year bar was not established to help a new union and its negotiations, even in cases of automatic recognition. 

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

29 CFR 1206.4 - Time limits on applications.
§ 1206.4 Time limits on applications.
Except in unusual or extraordinary circumstances, the National Mediation Board will not accept an application for investigation of a representation dispute among employees of a carrier:
(a) For a period of two (2) years from the date of a certification covering the same craft or class of employees on the same carrier, and ( b ) For a period of one (1) year from the date on which:
(1) The Board dismissed a docketed application after having conducted an election among the same craft or class of employees on the same carrier and less than a majority of valid ballots cast were for representation; or
(2) The Board dismissed a docketed application covering the same craft or class of employees on the same carrier because no dispute existed as defined in § 1206.2 of these rules; or
(3) The Board dismissed a docketed application after the applicant withdrew an application covering the same craft or class of employees on the same carrier after the application was docketed by the Board.
[44 FR 10602, Feb. 22, 1979, as amended at 75 FR 26088, May 11, 2010]

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

For a Union to put out this obviously misinformational letter by not already knowing the NMB rules or at least spending the 5 minutes it takes to find and read the rules is not a Union I would want representing me.
 
They already failed 2 other times trying to organize AA and completely screwed up the 3rd time by not knowing the rules or at least being ready and on time when the Teamsters filed their cards.
 
I mean come on the NMB rules are not that complcated or a long read.
 
Does AMFA have any legal counsel to review AMFA's stand before they put out letters like this?

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Facts AMFA should know
 

Final rule regarding NMB election procedures will impose 50-percent showing of interest threshold on all representation petitions

The National Mediation Board, on Friday, December 21, published a final rule amending its current regulations governing its election procedures. The final rule makes several changes to the NMB’s election procedures, but it is the NMB’s ruling on post-merger representation petitions that is sure to draw the most attention. In the final rule, the NMB has decided to require a 50-percent showing of interest in all representation petitions, including those spawned by mergers among carriers.
 
Background. On February 12, 2012, President Obama signed the Federal Aviation Administration and Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 into law. Among other things, that law changed the threshold needed to hold a representation election from 35 percent to 50 percent of the employees in a proposed unit. Controversially, the Act did not explicitly state whether the new threshold also applied to representation disputes stemming from a merger of two carriers.
The NMB had to amend its regulations to bring them into compliance with the Act. It published a notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) on May 15 and invited the public and interested parties to submit comments. It also held a hearing on the NPRM on June 19, 2012. Between invitations to submit comments, the NMB received approximately 17 comments on the NPRM, and in the final rule, the NMB attempts to answer what it deemed to be the most important of issues underlying the comments.
 
Petitions following a merger. Chief among those issues was whether the 50-percent threshold applies to post-merger representation petitions. Relying chiefly on comments made during the Senate floor debate that preceded the enactment of the law, various groups, including Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO (TTD), Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen (BLET), International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM), Association of Flight Attendants – CWA (AFA), Transportation Workers Union of America (TWU), and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT) argued that the new threshold did not apply. TTD argued that Section 2, Twelfth of the Railway Labor Act (RLA), which governs the handling of representation petitions, does not apply to mergers because in merger situations, the NMB is not concerned with whether a group of employees should be represented, but with how the merger of two carriers might affect existing representation. TTD and other groups cited comments by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid that the new law was not intended to apply to mergers because that could result in a group of employees losing representation “simply by merging with a slightly larger unit without even having the opportunity to vote.”
The NMB disagreed and has decided that the 50-percent threshold will apply to all representation disputes. Thus, any petition asking the Board to investigate a representation dispute must be supported by a 50-percent showing of interest. The NMB noted that the RLA requires the NMB to investigate representation disputes upon the request of any party to the dispute. It pointedly does not mention mergers and the NMB noted that when its current showing of interest rules were drafted in 1947, “mergers were not a factor in the airline industry.”
The NMB also noted that unlike the NLRA, the RLA does not have separate petitions for disputes stemming from mergers. “Thus, the statutory language does not distinguish between requests to investigate where the craft or class is unrepresented, where the employees wish to change representation or become unrepresented, or where there has been a merger or other corporate transaction.” The main question in representation disputes is which entity, if any, should be the bargaining representation of employees and that, the NMB said, is true, regardless of the background of the dispute. Had Congress wanted to change that, the NMB decided, it would have.
Similarly, would-be intervenors in elections must show that they have the support of at least 50 percent of the employees. “The Board sees no reason to make a distinction between initial applicants and intervenors at this point.”
 
Requests to change representation. The final rule also addresses requests to change representation. Some groups, including the Airlines for America and the Regional Airline Association (A4A/RAA), and the National Railway Labor Conference (NRLC) argued that the NMB needed to revise its manual because it is now inconsistent with the 50-percent threshold requirement. Section 19.7 of the manual currently states that current representation certifications remain in effect until after an election or until after the NMB has addressed the representation issues relating to a merger. The NLRC argued that unions should lose their certification following the merger of two units, unless they are able to show that they have the support of 50 percent of the unit. Essentially, the NLRC wanted to strip unions of their certification while a new election was being set up.
The NMB demurred, saying that it can only extinguish certifications when an employee has filed an application to do so and after the NMB has investigated that application. To do otherwise, the NMB found, would create the very instability that the RLA was crafted to avoid.
The NMB also declined to amend its manual to include greater protections against employer interference in elections, saying that it would continue to monitor allegations of election interference and will address them as they arise.

 

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Facts AMFA should know,
 
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.6 Procedure After Finding Single Transportation System[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]If the NMB determines that a single transportation system exists, the investigation will proceed to address the representation of the proper craft or class. The bar rules in NMB Rule §1206.4 (29 CFR § 1206.4) do not apply to applications filed under this section. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.601 Showing of Interest on the Single Transportation System[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]All applicants must submit evidence of representation or showing of interest from at least fifty (50) percent of the employees in the craft or class. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Evidence of representation or showing of interest from incumbent organizations or individuals on the affected carrier(s) includes, but is not limited to, a seniority list, dues check-off list, a current collective bargaining agreement or a certification, or other indicia of current representation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]If the organization or individual filing the application does not represent any of the employees covered by the application, showing of interest is proved by valid authorization cards. (See Section 3.0) [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.602 If not already filed with the initial application, organizations (Incumbents and Intervenors) have thirty (30) calendar days from the date of the NMB’s single transportation system determination to submit evidence of a showing of interest or to supplement the showing of interest on the single transportation system. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]Applications that do not meet the showing of interest requirements will be dismissed.[/SIZE]
 
 
 
In my opinion the NMB will first rule a single transportantion system exists and allow Intervenors 30 days for a showing of interest. Then they will rule, assuming AMFA doesn't have the cards or they screw up again, either that the TWU will represent the group or there will be an election between The Association and the TWU. I am not sure they will put IAM on the ballot unless they can show 50%+ (they can't) or the NMB rules that the TWU and IAM represent a substantially equal group. There is also the possiblity that The Association will get the nod but since the TWU and IAM didn't have separate internal votes regarding The Association I don't know if that can happen.
 
 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Facts AMFA should know,
 
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.6 Procedure After Finding Single Transportation System[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]If the NMB determines that a single transportation system exists, the investigation will proceed to address the representation of the proper craft or class. The bar rules in NMB Rule §1206.4 (29 CFR § 1206.4) do not apply to applications filed under this section. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.601 Showing of Interest on the Single Transportation System[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]All applicants must submit evidence of representation or showing of interest from at least fifty (50) percent of the employees in the craft or class. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Evidence of representation or showing of interest from incumbent organizations or individuals on the affected carrier(s) includes, but is not limited to, a seniority list, dues check-off list, a current collective bargaining agreement or a certification, or other indicia of current representation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]If the organization or individual filing the application does not represent any of the employees covered by the application, showing of interest is proved by valid authorization cards. (See Section 3.0) [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.602 If not already filed with the initial application, organizations (Incumbents and Intervenors) have thirty (30) calendar days from the date of the NMB’s single transportation system determination to submit evidence of a showing of interest or to supplement the showing of interest on the single transportation system. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]Applications that do not meet the showing of interest requirements will be dismissed.[/SIZE]
 
 
 
In my opinion the NMB will first rule a single transportantion system exists and allow Intervenors 30 days for a showing of interest. Then they will rule, assuming AMFA doesn't have the cards or they screw up again, either that the TWU will represent the group or there will be an election between The Association and the TWU. I am not sure they will put IAM on the ballot unless they can show 50%+ (they can't) or the NMB rules that the TWU and IAM represent a substantially equal group. There is also the possiblity that The Association will get the nod but since the TWU and IAM didn't have separate internal votes regarding The Association I don't know if that can happen.
 
 

That would exclude the IAM' s application. Did the TWU file an application as well, I forgot whether it did or not?
 
As for AMFA, I think they know the law, but they may realize that the support on the property will never get over the 30% who push them every year.  Seems their organizing committee is led by a few guys who just take the first excuse [like the ridiculous one last time] and rent out their brain.   The latest bulletin by their organizing committee lets me know that they are just renegading it.   Otherwise, they would be more informed of the law.  I think that is unfair to the few folks who seem to be supporting them at this time.

 

[swamt]

Facts AMFA should know,
 
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.6 Procedure After Finding Single Transportation System[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]If the NMB determines that a single transportation system exists, the investigation will proceed to address the representation of the proper craft or class. The bar rules in NMB Rule §1206.4 (29 CFR § 1206.4) do not apply to applications filed under this section. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.601 Showing of Interest on the Single Transportation System[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]All applicants must submit evidence of representation or showing of interest from at least fifty (50) percent of the employees in the craft or class. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Evidence of representation or showing of interest from incumbent organizations or individuals on the affected carrier(s) includes, but is not limited to, a seniority list, dues check-off list, a current collective bargaining agreement or a certification, or other indicia of current representation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]If the organization or individual filing the application does not represent any of the employees covered by the application, showing of interest is proved by valid authorization cards. (See Section 3.0) [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]19.602 If not already filed with the initial application, organizations (Incumbents and Intervenors) have thirty (30) calendar days from the date of the NMB’s single transportation system determination to submit evidence of a showing of interest or to supplement the showing of interest on the single transportation system. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]Applications that do not meet the showing of interest requirements will be dismissed.[/SIZE]
 
 
 
In my opinion the NMB will first rule a single transportantion system exists and allow Intervenors 30 days for a showing of interest. Then they will rule, assuming AMFA doesn't have the cards or they screw up again, either that the TWU will represent the group or there will be an election between The Association and the TWU. I am not sure they will put IAM on the ballot unless they can show 50%+ (they can't) or the NMB rules that the TWU and IAM represent a substantially equal group. There is also the possiblity that The Association will get the nod but since the TWU and IAM didn't have separate internal votes regarding The Association I don't know if that can happen.
 
 

I think you are correct, as does the 591 pres Peterson.  BUT, I have seen the NMB do border line rulings in the past so part of me also believes it could still go either way.   Something is road blocking the final decision.  Today marks the 8th week since the SCS filing and I have never seen a single carrier status ruling take this long, something is up.  All them there rules also apply to this alliance trying to slide into the new AA as well...

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

For a Union to put out this obviously misinformational letter by not already knowing the NMB rules or at least spending the 5 minutes it takes to find and read the rules is not a Union I would want representing me.
 
They already failed 2 other times trying to organize AA and completely screwed up the 3rd time by not knowing the rules or at least being ready and on time when the Teamsters filed their cards.
 
I mean come on the NMB rules are not that complcated or a long read.
 
Does AMFA have any legal counsel to review AMFA's stand before they put out letters like this?

 
USAir_vote NO
 
AMFA National did not put out the letter it was sent by the Organizers here at AA that want AMFA to be the representing union. AMFA National does have a Legal team that they have on retainer but unlike the IAM & TWU they don't work for the Union.
 
We have tried more than twice to get enough cards to remove the TWU, that is true. The first time we filed we were short by 48 cards due to the numbers that AA supplied to the NMB. Last yr when the IBT filed AA gave the list of eligible employees to the NMB shortly after the IBT turned in cards so attempting to get our cards from our collection point in Dallas to DC in 2 hrs was impossible. The paperwork was filed by the correct people from AMFA National and signed by authorised signers. The cards were at the NMB at opening time the next morn but were not accepted due to the Rule #3 stated by the NMB. If you remember USAirways had to file an extension to get the list to the NMB from what I heard. 
 
You support the IAM then why the vote NO? If the IAM has done such a great job then you should be supporting the union you want. But the TWU and IAM have us both at the bottom of the pay scale within our class and craft so how does that sit with you.?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

USAirways Vote No
 
AMFA as well does not have a paid organizing unit like the three big industrial unions. 
 
THE IBT/TWU/IAM pay guys to do this we the employees at AA are doing this.
 
We are tired of the scamming and back door deals. All we want is for the NMB to give us a VOTE.
 
If AMFA Fails then the members have spoken, the ballots will determine the winner,
NOT,  ME,  you or the leaders of these Two unions who have for yrs done what they wanted without looking out for the best interest of its members.
 
You support the IAM that is your choice, But the IAM had no plan when they took Eastern out, they Failed at Continental, They failed at TWA, They failed at United,
They Failed at NorthWest, and if I am not mistaken they Failed at USAirways as well since you guys are at the bottom with us. How well have they done there for you and all the others. I would say I would rather have AMFA than the IAM since they lost or failed at every company since the 1970's since I have been in the airline biz.
 
Your IAM even has threatened to stop payment into your IAMNPF if you leave the IAM.
 
Now that a union you want? Lucky You.
 
I want a VOTE so that YOU and everyone at the new AA will have a voice.

 

[psa8979]

AMFA is a PONZI SCHEME . Real change for Airline Workers will come when/if  CONGRESS amends the RLA . My bet is NMB will rule ASSOCIATION the bargaining UNION without an election . VOTE ! for a Labor Friendly CONGRESS for real change in Nov. 2014. 

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AMFA is a PONZI SCHEME . Real change for Airline Workers will come when/if  CONGRESS amends the RLA . My bet is NMB will rule ASSOCIATION the bargaining UNION without an election . VOTE ! for a Labor Friendly CONGRESS for real change in Nov. 2014. 

 
 
PSA8979
 
Ok I'll give you the fact that we need the RLA Act to be changed but who is going to Lobby for that change?
 
Congress won't do it on it own. If you think that the IAM is the way to go then WHY Hasn't the IAM got with the Other 2 industrial unions the IBT and the TWU since they are the three that have the most airline workers.  Why haven't they done it already? Why hasn't the AFL-CIO pushed for this change to protect us?
 
Real change is going to come from US, the workers. We the US/AA mechanics have a chance to join together here as the largest Carrier AA. If we join with Alaska and Southwest, as AMFA members we can have a great say in our industry. 
 
"YES" it may be a pipe dream but if we don't where are we all going to end up?
 
The three biggest unions in our industry have not changed much in the 30+ plus years I have been in the industry. IAM was in charge at most of the carriers yrs ago and why are they not the strongest and still in power? Failure is the answer.
 
I am not the only one who just wants a chance to vote on my classifications craft and class union representation. Many want change but scared of the threats the big unions have mentioned each time we attempt to rid our selves of them.
 
Lets just HOPE that the NMB gives us all the Vote we deserve.
 
Sign a AMFA Card today and get some one on your crew to sign as well.
 
AMFA at AA in 2014.

 

[TRAVIS]

Well Monday and now Tuesday and no NMB........Lets go for 10 weeks.

 

[whoop whoop]

PSA8979,  could you please explain why you say AMFA is a Ponzi scheme?  I am not sure how to compare the 2, thank you.

 

[swamt]

Well Monday and now Tuesday and no NMB........Lets go for 10 weeks.

Wed will mark 9 weeks.  Pretty sure it will go the 10 weeks.  Something is up. There seems to be problems.  Most all SCS filings are ruled on by the NMB within 4-6 weeks max.  Something is up, or the industrial unions are working yet another back door deal...