Planes out of service in the system

[FWAAA]

If AA had approximately four mechanics per airplane (as does UPS) and outsourced all of its heavy overhaul (as does UPS) and if the AA AMTs worked under the UPS contract, it's not unreasonable to think that AMTs at AA could squeeze the company for $47/hr to $50/hr.

Southwest proves that it can be done. Southwest has approximately four maintenance personnel per airplane and pays its AMTs about $47/hr, right?

 

[Bob Owens]

"I was told that UPS started sending out there retro checks and one mechanic recieved $41,000 and..."

That's because UPS makes more net profit in 1 month than AA does in a year. Easily.
Don't get me wrong now...I know UPS mechs secured a great top out rate(can imagine IBT "language/scope"), but the legacy carriers' mechs will probablynever see that kind of money! Especially in OH. No bone to pick, but just the sad reality IMO. It's burns there asses right up to have to pay us knuckle draggin mechanics the kind of money they're paying us now. After all, we don't have a bachelors!!

Mechanics do not determine which markets the carriers serve or what they use the planes for, management is responsible for profits. Our wage should not be determined by whether or not the carrier decides to show a profit. Should carriers that lose money expect a discount on fuel, landing fees, rents and parts as well?

 

[Bob Owens]

If AA had approximately four mechanics per airplane (as does UPS) and outsourced all of its heavy overhaul (as does UPS) and if the AA AMTs worked under the UPS contract, it's not unreasonable to think that AMTs at AA could squeeze the company for $47/hr to $50/hr.

Southwest proves that it can be done. Southwest has approximately four maintenance personnel per airplane and pays its AMTs about $47/hr, right?

If we compare line operations the staffing is nearly the same.

Airlines will not release what they pay for a heavy check to an MRO so we really dont know what the most is they could pay, UPS told their mechanics if they wanted all the work in house all they would pay is $41/hr.

Another factor in trying to insource is the fact that the carrier would need to aquire the space and the talent. AA already has both.

 

[FWAAA]

If we compare line operations the staffing is nearly the same.

Airlines will not release what they pay for a heavy check to an MRO so we really dont know what the most is they could pay, UPS told their mechanics if they wanted all the work in house all they would pay is $41/hr.

Another factor in trying to insource is the fact that the carrier would need to aquire the space and the talent. AA already has both.

You're right - we don't know what a heavy check costs when performed by outsourced MROs. My WAG is that a heavy check is cheaper when outsourced, especially when the MRO is in the third world like El Salvador where the other thread mentions that the AMTs get $5/hr and their helpers are lucky to get $2/hr.

The bottom line is this: What airlines spend on heavy overhaul isn't really your concern, Bob. Your concern ought to be maximizing the wages of your members in the USA. If AA (or any other airline) outsources heavy checks and thereby increases their costs above the insourced costs, then that's their management failure, right? Not your problem.

Your concern should be focused, IMO, on figuring out how to move your wages from the low thirties per hour up to the mid-to-high forties per hour. Problem is, your so-called "union" has thousands of members in Tulsa and Fort Worth, and it's obvious (at least to me) that AA is never going to agree to pay them $47/hr for heavy checks (at least not while there are MROs in places like SAL that employ people for less than 10% of TUL wages). There are almost seven billion people on the planet; there may not be very many A&Ps currently issued by the FAA, but I'll bet that there are plenty of warm bodies somewhere on the planet that can overhaul a jet airplane or can be quickly trained to do so (even if that training is half-assed and not up to your standards).

 

[strikeforce]

The bottom line is this: What airlines spend on heavy overhaul isn't really your concern, Bob. Your concern ought to be maximizing the wages of your members in the USA. If AA (or any other airline) outsources heavy checks and thereby increases their costs above the insourced costs, then that's their management failure, right? Not your problem.

Your concern should be focused, IMO, on figuring out how to move your wages from the low thirties per hour up to the mid-to-high forties per hour. Problem is, your so-called "union" has thousands of members in Tulsa and Fort Worth, and it's obvious (at least to me) that AA is never going to agree to pay them $47/hr for heavy checks (at least not while there are MROs in places like SAL that employ people for less than 10% of TUL wages). There are almost seven billion people on the planet; there may not be very many A&Ps currently issued by the FAA, but I'll bet that there are plenty of warm bodies somewhere on the planet that can overhaul a jet airplane or can be quickly trained to do so (even if that training is half-assed and not up to your standards).

Couldn't agree more! Well put and to the point!

 

[eolesen]

There are only two practical solutions to that problem -- separate the line and OH contracts, or create different job classifications with different rates. AA already has the OSM/SRP classifications for unlicensed helpers, but as far as I can tell, there's no distinction between a licensed worker on the line and on the dock. Split those to a line mechanic classification, and an overhaul mechanic classification, and you could easily have the $41 rate for overhaul and $47+ for the line. Maybe throw in an IdeAAs type incentive program in place for the base to help make up the difference...

But, as we all know, that's got a very low chance of surviving a vote because it will be cast as divide and conquer...

 

[strikeforce]

There are only two practical solutions to that problem -- separate the line and OH contracts, or create different job classifications with different rates. AA already has the OSM/SRP classifications for unlicensed helpers, but as far as I can tell, there's no distinction between a licensed worker on the line and on the dock. Split those to a line mechanic and an overhaul mechanic, and you could have the $41 rate for overhaul and $47+ for the line.

But, as we all know, that's got a very low chance of surviving a vote because it will be cast as divide and conquer...

We already have Line and Overhaul in the contract. Line recieves an additional 55 cents for line pay. That's the only difference!!

The only solution to the OH and Line issue is have a seperate contract. That will only happen if AA farms out OH or sells Tulsa and Tulsa becomes it's own entity.

 

[Frank Szabo]

We already have Line and Overhaul in the contract. Line recieves an additional 55 cents for line pay. That's the only difference!!

The only solution to the OH and Line issue is have a seperate contract. That will only happen if AA farms out OH or sells Tulsa and Tulsa becomes it's own entity.

This has nothing to do with farming out OH or selling anything. Being "contract time", the line boys want to demonize overhaul.

OK - fine. There aren't nearly as many of you as there OH mechs - how do you damned fools think will work out? I would guess exactly the opposite of what you hope for, with OH getting a lion's share and the line marginalized or farmed out. The numbers involved would make that infinitely simpler.

Now - wouldn't you really rather not be radical and work together against our common enemies instead of cutting your own throat due to being "better" than someone else?

 

[eolesen]

Yes, separating the contracts makes the most sense. I think you'd still need to create a separate classification to manage places like TUL and DFW where you have both base and line, though.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Yes, separating the contracts makes the most sense. I think you'd still need to create a separate classification to manage places like TUL and DFW where you have both base and line, though.

This was attempted some time ago - fleet and others were a "drag" on the mech's pay therefore, they wanted their own contracts.

I've got a damned old cat like that - as soon as she gets what she thought she wanted. she wants something else as the first desire wasn't good enough - this has been happening for the 20+ years with the contract that I've been around to watch. Comical, but the company and union have been the only winners.

 

[Tater Salad]

the line boys want to demonize overhaul.

Now - wouldn't you really rather not be radical and work together against our common enemies instead of cutting your own throat due to being "better" than someone else?

The Line folks don't think they are "better" than the OH at all. The industry has changed. The avg cost of getting a/c OH has dropped dramatically because you can fly the plane to the lowest bidder. You gotta pretty much fix the plane where it's at in Line mtx. If they figure out how to get cheap outsourced line mtx, we're all f$@$ed. But in the mean time, line is where the money is at. You know it, I know it, we all know it, why can't we all admit it?

 

[Bob Owens]

You're right - we don't know what a heavy check costs when performed by outsourced MROs. My WAG is that a heavy check is cheaper when outsourced, especially when the MRO is in the third world like El Salvador where the other thread mentions that the AMTs get $5/hr and their helpers are lucky to get $2/hr.

The bottom line is this: What airlines spend on heavy overhaul isn't really your concern, Bob. Your concern ought to be maximizing the wages of your members in the USA. If AA (or any other airline) outsources heavy checks and thereby increases their costs above the insourced costs, then that's their management failure, right? Not your problem.

Your concern should be focused, IMO, on figuring out how to move your wages from the low thirties per hour up to the mid-to-high forties per hour. Problem is, your so-called "union" has thousands of members in Tulsa and Fort Worth, and it's obvious (at least to me) that AA is never going to agree to pay them $47/hr for heavy checks (at least not while there are MROs in places like SAL that employ people for less than 10% of TUL wages). There are almost seven billion people on the planet; there may not be very many A&Ps currently issued by the FAA, but I'll bet that there are plenty of warm bodies somewhere on the planet that can overhaul a jet airplane or can be quickly trained to do so (even if that training is half-assed and not up to your standards).

What 3p providers pay their mechanics really means nothing to us, its what they charge that we need to know and they will never release that number, probably because the vendor wont release it because each carrier probably pays a different rate. Obviously when Southwest rolls in saying they can supply a steady 737 line they are going to get a better price than a carrier who says they have a handful of MD-80s, some 737s and some 757s because it costs the vendor more to switch his operation around from one type to another.We can see what they charge in General Aviation, upwards of $75/hr, lot more customers who have a lot more flexibility and a lot more options (people also seem to forget that there are a lot more aircraft in General Aviation than Commercial Aviation). The more expensive fuel gets the less cost efficient it is to fly a plane to where they have the $5/hr mechanics, if they really exist, plus there's the thing you and the bean counters dont seem to recognize, there's the time to do the OH, then there's the mop up when they get it back in house, where the carriers mechanics spend anywhere from a few days to a week cleaning up the things they screwed up in OH. When our planes come out of OH they are as good as when they came from Boeing, right into revenue service. What many dont realize is that us older guys have been around, we had to have five years heavy turbine experience to get the job so we are very familiar with the product that comes out of these shops. We saw it first hand then, we never thought we would see it at the majors though.


The figure we got from UPS was that if they were to bring it in house they would only offer $41/hr, which is probably a low ball figure, otherwise they figured they could stay with the vendors they have. We arent looking for $47/hr at this point, we realize that other carriers have to be given a chance to catch up, but obviuosly parity with UPS is the long term objective, their current rate is where we should or rather would be in 2015 if we had simply recieved COLA increases since 2003. (UPS was always a little ahead of us-no flight benefits). We also figure that many of these carriers are looking to bring more work back in house but they want to do so under terms similar to what AA has had since 1995, with OSMs. These things wont be done overnight.

That said the offer we put across the table provides the company a lot of flexibility to control costs. If you do a lot of work at night in high cost areas you are going to pay more. The airlines have enjoyed a free ride for so long in regards to shifts and locales they simply refuse to adapt to the new world realities that they keep telling us we have to adapt to. This offer does that. The difference in pay between a line guy working nights in a high cost city and a day shift guy in OH are significant, around $10,000 a year. The company either never really looked at the offer or they simply want their cake and eat it too. They want us to adapat while they refuse to do the same. Our offer would not lock the company in for a long time either, so if competitors did not leapfrog us they could always pull out the BK threat again.

Given that this offer provides them so much flexibility I really dont see where we could move anymore than we have. The wage difference is high enough where there would still be migration from the bases to the line, thus easing the shortage of A&Ps for the line and the company has already made arrangements with at least seven different A&P schools across the country for new mechanics to replace those who attrit out, but if they want to keep them they have to pay. AA could draw from the schools to keep restaffing their OSMs which brings their average rates way down, if the top guys are earning $39 and 20% of the base is staffed with new hire OSMs earning les than half that(which they accept because they see anywhere from $39 to $44 down the road depending on where they want to settle down and they dont have to lose five years getting the experience to get in the door) then AAs OH rates would still be way below UPS low ball $41/hr figure. They would also see a low turnover rate as far as people they train leaving the company which would further boost productivity, efficiency and lower costs.

 

[strikeforce]

Given that this offer provides them so much flexibility I really dont see where we could move anymore than we have. The wage difference is high enough where there would still be migration from the bases to the line, thus easing the shortage of A&Ps for the line and the company has already made arrangements with at least seven different A&P schools across the country for new mechanics to replace those who attrit out, but if they want to keep them they have to pay. AA could draw from the schools to keep restaffing their OSMs which brings their average rates way down, if the top guys are earning $39 and 20% of the base is staffed with new hire OSMs earning les than half that(which they accept because they see anywhere from $39 to $44 down the road depending on where they want to settle down) then AAs OH rates would still be way below UPS low ball $41/hr figure. They would also see a low turnover rate as far as people they train leaving the company which would further boost productivity, efficiency and lower costs.

Great! How about 75% OSM's, SRP's and 25% AMT's for Base and $52 an hour for all amt's.

BTW...I have a comment regarding this shortage of mechanics in the industry. Didn't over 900 amt's apply for 40-50 amt jobs in NY? Some 800 applied for 40-50 in Chicago? So, where's this shortage of available mechanics you mention? Just between the two there's 1700 amt's out there looking for work, right? How about MIA, DFW, TUL, LAX? How many are applying there?

 

[Bob Owens]

BTW...I have a comment regarding this shortage of mechanics in the industry. Didn't over 900 amt's apply for 40-50 amt jobs in NY? Some 800 applied for 40-50 in Chicago? So, where's this shortage of available mechanics you mention? Just between the two there's 1700 amt's out there looking for work, right? How about MIA, DFW, TUL, LAX? How many are applying there?

I doubt it, company propaganda. My bet is the source can be traced back to the International . The same guys who run around saying AA is going BK, doing the companys dirty work while on the union payroll. Thats where I heard it as well. Ask to see the applications. I do know that the station manager was asking guys (since many work second jobs on the field) to ask anyone they knew in the industry to put in an application. He even commented on the lack of talent available. One of the guys they hired was over 60 years old, may be a great guy but if they had 800 qualified applicants do you think they would hire and train a guy that they will only get five years at the most from? Would you? The guys we got are mostly guys that left JetBlue and Delta.

Remember judge them by their actions, not what they say. In NY they reinstated flex rate to step 3. Would they have done that if they had 800 applications?? Cost of living has nothing to do with determining to use flex rates, market conditions, the ability to fill the spot is the sole reason why they raise it.


My guess is they are getting very few, thats why they are reaching out to the schools and giving away all those MD-80s, hiring people who are within retirement age, bringing in the flex rates and lowering the experience requirement.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The bottom line is this: What airlines spend on heavy overhaul isn't really your concern, Bob. Your concern ought to be maximizing the wages of your members in the USA. If AA (or any other airline) outsources heavy checks and thereby increases their costs above the insourced costs, then that's their management failure, right? Not your problem.

Your concern should be focused, IMO, on figuring out how to move your wages from the low thirties per hour up to the mid-to-high forties per hour. Problem is, your so-called "union" has thousands of members in Tulsa and Fort Worth, and it's obvious (at least to me) that AA is never going to agree to pay them $47/hr for heavy checks (at least not while there are MROs in places like SAL that employ people for less than 10% of TUL wages). There are almost seven billion people on the planet; there may not be very many A&Ps currently issued by the FAA, but I'll bet that there are plenty of warm bodies somewhere on the planet that can overhaul a jet airplane or can be quickly trained to do so (even if that training is half-assed and not up to your standards)

Partly true….
The reason why the labor movement in the US has shrunk as much as it has is because of the mindset that says that it is labor’s job to figure out how to maximize its own “take” at the expense of the company – while the US is largely a business-friendly country that says that growing the economy is more important than protecting labor. The last couple years have been a shift in the direction of being more labor friendly but the results are far from certain... and when you politicize economic issues (such as is going on with Boeing and the 787 plant and the DL representation elections), labor will lose because the only way the US economy can compete is if the US offers higher quality, more efficient processes compared to lower cost world producers… one look at the US auto industry shows that labor gambled for a long time that they could force mgmt to pay above market (compared to the global marketplace) wages … lots of higher quality, lower priced, more consumer friendly automakers have won substantial shares of the US auto market and they aren’t through growing….despite attempts by Washington to help the auto industry, business will invest and consumers will buy where there is the best return on investment – whether it be a plant for a company and the workers that staff it or the purchase price of the car for a consumer…
The same can be said about the US airline industry…. There is a lot about the industry that cannot be outsourced to 3rd world countries… but when it is possible to outsource flying to lower cost regional carriers and maintenance can be done overseas, there is nothing long term stopping companies from going where they get the best return on investment.
The only way labor will win is if they figure out how to demonstrate value added to the company… WN and its labor win because they both create what both need. Perhaps UPS does it for their mechanics because they do the same….and they have both adapted to the type of business they run- and arguably both are engaged in businesses that allow them to pay their employees better than network passenger airlines.

There are only two practical solutions to that problem -- separate the line and OH contracts, or create different job classifications with different rates. AA already has the OSM/SRP classifications for unlicensed helpers, but as far as I can tell, there's no distinction between a licensed worker on the line and on the dock. Split those to a line mechanic classification, and an overhaul mechanic classification, and you could easily have the $41 rate for overhaul and $47+ for the line. Maybe throw in an IdeAAs type incentive program in place for the base to help make up the difference...

But, as we all know, that's got a very low chance of surviving a vote because it will be cast as divide and conquer...

Divide and conquer will never work and will never pass.. even those who want to see the union fail recognize that… part of the whole union mindset is for everyone to stand together… Bob and co. could separate out the line and OH but they would likely lose the group they throw under the bus…
You also have to look at what US competitors are doing… I don’t know all but unless all of AA’s major competitors have the same wage differential (and I know at least some and perhaps all do not), then AA won’t agree to paying one group more just to keep another group happy… it’s basic economics… AA will do what is in AA’s best interest for all of the work and they aren’t going to pay a premium to do so.

The Line folks don't think they are "better" than the OH at all. The industry has changed. The avg cost of getting a/c OH has dropped dramatically because you can fly the plane to the lowest bidder. You gotta pretty much fix the plane where it's at in Line mtx. If they figure out how to get cheap outsourced line mtx, we're all f$@$ed. But in the mean time, line is where the money is at. You know it, I know it, we all know it, why can't we all admit it?

No… line justifies a higher price because it is harder to outsource… but to think that “we’ve got them by the gonads” so we can command whatever price we want while throwing our colleagues under the bus who can’t as easily defend themselves against outsourcing will only serve to weaken the AMT “profession” ….
The only for both is to demonstrate the value they add… and demonstrating it… not by telling us based on anecdotes that outsourced maintenance is of cheap quality while in-house maintenance is flawless (we deliver planes that are as good as when they come from Boeing - (forget about those manufacturing defects that Boeing delivered, Bob?) ) Provide statistics on the quality of the work that is delivered and then justify ECONOMICALLY that flying a plane to some other part of the world costs MORE than doing it here….

I doubt it, company propaganda. My bet is the source can be traced back to the International . The same guys who run around saying AA is going BK, doing the companys dirty work while on the union payroll. Thats where I heard it as well. Ask to see the applications. I do know that the station manager was asking guys (since many work second jobs on the field) to ask anyone they knew in the industry to put in an application. He even commented on the lack of talent available. One of the guys they hired was over 60 years old, may be a great guy but if they had 800 qualified applicants do you think they would hire and train a guy that they will only get five years at the most from? Would you? The guys we got are mostly guys that left JetBlue and Delta.

Remember judge them by their actions, not what they say. In NY they reinstated flex rate to step 3. Would they have done that if they had 800 applications?? Cost of living has nothing to do with determining to use flex rates, market conditions, the ability to fill the spot is the sole reason why they raise it.


My guess is they are getting very few, thats why they are reaching out to the schools and giving away all those MD-80s, hiring people who are within retirement age, bringing in the flex rates and lowering the experience requirement.

Your 2nd paragraph is true… AA didn’t raise labor rates because they felt generous.. they did it because they had to… but pretending that AA doesn’t have enough qualified people who can step in is a mighty dangerous assumption unless you really know… there might well be a whole lot of those that aren’t qualified… but if it came down to AA deciding they have had enough w/ the current labor /mgmt standoff, they could well figure out how to get 1500 of those warm bodies in place to pull a NW/AMFA busting operation…
Don’t kid yourself about what AA is willing to do if it comes down to saving the company… right now, they are happy to play the game of status quo…