Plane skids off runway at LaGuardia

[WorldTraveler]

and where did I say "autoland?"

nowhere.

◦That the automatic spoilers did not deploy but that the first officer quickly deployed them manually.
◦That the auto brakes were set to ‘max’ but that they did not sense any wheel brake deceleration.

◦That the autopilot was engaged until the airplane was about 230 feet above the ground.

 

[700UW]

and, yes, robbed, I believe pilot techniques were trained after LIT to ^let the aircraft^ do the landing....

 

 

[WorldTraveler]

that doesn't say "autoland" now does it?

did you break your leg jumping to that conclusion?

and this is what the NTSB said about AA at LIT:

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable causes of this accident were the flight crew’s failure to discontinue the approach when severe thunderstorms and their associated hazards to flight operations had moved into the airport area and the crew’s failure to ensure that the spoilers had extended after touchdown.


The DL pilots did apply lessons from the LIT accident.

For all 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 and 135 operators of
airplanes equipped with automatic spoiler systems, require dual
crewmember confirmation before landing that the spoilers have been
armed, and verify that these operators include this procedure in their flight
manuals, checklists, and training programs. (A-01-49)
For all 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 and 135 operators, require
a callout if the spoilers do not automatically or manually deploy during
landing and a callout when the spoilers have deployed, and verify that these
operators include these procedures in their flight manuals, checklists, and
training programs. The procedures should clearly identify which pilot is
responsible for making these callouts and which pilot is responsible for
deploying the spoilers if they do not automatically or manually deploy.
(A-01-50)

Issue a flight standards information bulletin that requires the use of
1.3 engine pressure ratio as the maximum reverse thrust power for MD-80
series airplanes under wet or slippery runway conditions, except in an
emergency in which directional control can be sacrificed for decreased
stopping distance. (A-01-51)
Require principal operations inspectors of all operators of MD-80 series
airplanes to review and determine that these operators’ flight manuals and
training programs contain information on the decrease in rudder
effectiveness when reverse thrust power in excess of 1.3 engine pressure
ratio is applied. (A-01-52)
Require all operators of MD-80 series airplanes to require a callout if
reverse thrust power exceeds the operators’ specific engine pressure ratio
settings. (A-01-53)
For all 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 and 135 operators, require
the use of automatic brakes, if available and operative, for landings during
wet, slippery, or high crosswind conditions, and verify that these operators
include this procedure in their flight manuals, checklists, and training
programs. (A-01-54)

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0102.pdf

 

[700UW]

You dont know what the pilots did.
 
You are an outright liar.
 
You werent in the cockpit nor a member of the NTSB.
 
Do you think people believe your Bullcrap?

 

[topDawg]

it is great to say I don't know what I am talking about but my suggestion from the beginning was equipment related and that is where the NTSB says they are looking.

feel free to call me wrong but the proof will be whether the report shows I am wrong or not.

I don't deal with hypothetical "the moon could spin out of orbit" kind of talk.

I deal with what actually happens. If this accident was caused by DL pilots failing to do what they were trained to do, let me know.

If the NTSB finds out that there was a latent maintenance issue that went back to the MRO visit, let me know. I'll gladly admit I am wrong.

and, yes, robbed, I believe pilot techniques were trained after LIT to ^let the aircraft^ do the landing....

and also, the spoilers did not deploy according to the pilots even though they were set to auto position before landing.

given that passengers indicated that the plane felt like it was hydroplaning or sliding on ice, it would seem that one question is if that was related to the spoiler deployment.

If dawg wanted to contribute something of value, he could tell us how the M80 spoilers are activated.

What do you mean? its a handle in the cockpit controlled by the pilots our autopilot/autoland. 
 
pretty sure the NTSB has already said the spoilers were deployed correctly. 
 
 
and I am not saying the pilots did this, all i am saying its that it is completely foolish to think that this can't be something that was caused at the last HMV visit or even an overhaul done on the airplane when Delta did them in-house. Till we have a report of what happened it is a guess. 
 
and its not any more unlikely than anything else at this point. Just because the brakes were checked in Tampa doesn't mean a thing (if they were checked) it simply means that, at best, they worked then. 
I don't know what they do on the line but I don't believe for a second that the RON checks in Tampa were anything more than a chance to look at the log book, do some lubing and write some stuff up(and fix anything that can't be MELed) 
I also don't believe they are doing high speed break checks. 

 

[robbedagain]

the crew of AA Flight 1420 were running out of time   they did not arm their spoilers or t/r   and there were severe thunderstorms in the LIT area   all combined   with the end result the plane skidded off the end of the runway       So in the end this accident of DL 1086 cld also come down to pilot error as well  

 

[topDawg]

the crew of AA Flight 1420 were running out of time   they did not arm their spoilers or t/r   and there were severe thunderstorms in the LIT area   all combined   with the end result the plane skidded off the end of the runway       So in the end this accident of DL 1086 cld also come down to pilot error as well  

I thought they did use T/Rs but went over 1.3% EPR which causes a lack of rudder control on the MD80s? 
 
I am pretty sure the LIT crash is why the 1.3% EPR rule (when wet/icy) came about but i could be wrong. 

 

[robbedagain]

youre right dawg   according to Wikipedia.org  the plane came in with 28 knot winds coming out of 330 degrees thus exceeding their crosswinds landing limits.   the pilots did forget to arm both the spoilers and the auto brakes and the plane slid and ran off the end of the runway and they had used excessive thrust reversers

 

[FWAAA]

It would have been done on an RON while at JAX, not off at an MRO not at the JAX airport.
 
So it would have to been a vendor at JAX.

Unless you've seen the logbook for the aircraft, I'm not sure what evidence leads you to this conclusion.

The NTSB said this:
 

The last major maintenance visit took place on September 22, 2014 in Jacksonville, Fla. This visit was part of the airplane’s regularly scheduled maintenance program, and included tests of the auto brake, antiskid and auto spoiler systems.

Kev3188 asked if anyone had an idea of who performs such "major maintenance" at JAX. My guess is that the Flightstar at Cecil performs that "major maintenance" and your non sequitur reply is the above? "Major maintenance visits," according to you, must occur during overnight stops at JAX and could not possibly occur at a nearby MRO that counts DL as one of its customers?

Like I said - what evidence supports that conclusion?

 

[700UW]

I misread the initial report.

 

[swamt]

Looks like WT is still showing that he is a MORON!!!  God you just gotta LUV this stuff.  What a dumb-a$$.  Keep posting WT, keep posting...

 

[WorldTraveler]

What do you mean? its a handle in the cockpit controlled by the pilots our autopilot/autoland. 
 
pretty sure the NTSB has already said the spoilers were deployed correctly. 
 
 
and I am not saying the pilots did this, all i am saying its that it is completely foolish to think that this can't be something that was caused at the last HMV visit or even an overhaul done on the airplane when Delta did them in-house. Till we have a report of what happened it is a guess. 
 
and its not any more unlikely than anything else at this point. Just because the brakes were checked in Tampa doesn't mean a thing (if they were checked) it simply means that, at best, they worked then. 
I don't know what they do on the line but I don't believe for a second that the RON checks in Tampa were anything more than a chance to look at the log book, do some lubing and write some stuff up(and fix anything that can't be MELed) 
I also don't believe they are doing high speed break checks.

unlike the dumbass WN mechanic who can't follow the line of questioning, you, dawg, actually made the point I have been making all along.

I didn't say there aren't mechanical problems that could have occurred but for one as major as brake and spoiler issues that go back months to have suddenly shown up on this landing after working fine with no issues discovered by maintenance or pilots is highly unlikely.

you didn't ask the question as to what causes the spoilers to deploy when they are set in auto mode... because they didn't. Is there a certain weight on the wheels that they sense to cause deployment and if so if the wheels didn't firmly touch the runway but the aircraft "skated" along the runway could that have caused the spoilers to fail to deploy.

I'm interested in a mechanic who actually knows that aircraft - and I presume you do, dawg, tell me how the systems are designed to prevent excessive engine use with the thrust reversers and how that is potentially tied to the failure of the spoilers to deploy.

I'm happy to learn from people who know the plane... I'm not going to sit still while other airline mechanics call me an idiot but have nothing to say about the plane - and clearly can't because their airline doesn't operate them.

and robbed's comment is valid... AA's pilots in the LIT accident "panicked" because of the lack of spoiler deployment... did DL's pilots do the same even though they apparently made a textbook approach and configuration of the aircraft for landing.

 

[robbedagain]

the DL crew did deploy the spoilers manually whereas in the AA accident the crew did not even deploy it    IT was not so much panicking  but they missed a few steps as they were attempting to land and beat the storm  sadly the storm won and it costed the captain and 14 others their lives and  plane destroyed

 

[Kev3188]

 

and robbed's comment is valid... AA's pilots in the LIT accident "panicked" because of the lack of spoiler deployment...

Inflammatory.

 

[metopower]

Wow ..I've been reading this and way too many speculations by people that have no idea how this system works. First... The auto spoilers are the key to the auto brakes working. Second ..on a snow or water impacted runway the auto brakes on the Md 88/90 may not detect the main wheel spin up and deploy so the action of the pilot not flying is to deploy the speed brakes manually if they have failed to deploy automatically . Third .... And this is important ... Sometimes repeat sometimes deploying the speed brakes manually will not also trigger the auto brakes to function.reverse thrust works like an anchor.....but opposite. That is why you use them with equal braking otherwise your reaction time is too slow to stop the weathervaining....thus loss of control. Little rock had more to do with not doing the checklist and crm not with any panicking .