Twicebaked
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Pittsburgh AFA informational picketing
- Thread starter Twicebaked
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Twicebaked
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Piney,
Are you Bipolar? Seriously,you have the craziest mood swings I have ever seen. Throughout this thread you went from supporting the employees, siding with managment, bashing me(which you cannot handle it back) and now going along with my point about not having flexability. You have some serious issues with something or someone. Who crapped on your toast? You don't offend me. I could care less about you. I don't know you. I don't care if you fight for any flag. Many of our fellow employees that are servicemen/women would love to hear that from you by the way. I follow your posts and you just go off like a lose cannon. You say PitBull thinks everyone is wrong if they don't agree with them....You seem to go off on people ALWAYS if their views don't match your's. It also seems that, depending on who started the topic (managment or employee), you bash the other. Step back and chill out. You are going to give your self a heart attack. Ever see the movie "Cybil"? Your rantings don't even support this thread.
And I must be "half baked" for continuing this obnoxious subject with you.
Are you Bipolar? Seriously,you have the craziest mood swings I have ever seen. Throughout this thread you went from supporting the employees, siding with managment, bashing me(which you cannot handle it back) and now going along with my point about not having flexability. You have some serious issues with something or someone. Who crapped on your toast? You don't offend me. I could care less about you. I don't know you. I don't care if you fight for any flag. Many of our fellow employees that are servicemen/women would love to hear that from you by the way. I follow your posts and you just go off like a lose cannon. You say PitBull thinks everyone is wrong if they don't agree with them....You seem to go off on people ALWAYS if their views don't match your's. It also seems that, depending on who started the topic (managment or employee), you bash the other. Step back and chill out. You are going to give your self a heart attack. Ever see the movie "Cybil"? Your rantings don't even support this thread.
And I must be "half baked" for continuing this obnoxious subject with you.
MarkMyWords
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Let''s try this again.....since my last post was deleted by the moderator.
TB you said: You are going against your own words. Flight Attendants work up to 15 HOURS in any given day. We aren''t compensated for that either. When we are boarding passengers an hour before our trip starts and a half of an hour before every leg, we are not being compensated.
MMW says: First of all F/A''s do not "work" for 15 hours in a day. You can only be "scheduled" to be on duty for 14 hours, and can''t be "scheduled" for more then 8 hours of hard time, or "work". Yes during flight irregularities you can be made to go to 15 hours, and block time can go over 8. To say that you are not compensated for the time that you are scheduled versus what you work is inaccurate. Let''s compare like work functions. Agents and F/A''s are a similar, entry level, customer contact work function. Let''s say that a topped out F/A makes 44.00 an hour for hard time. A topped out cutsomer service agents makes 21.00 an hour. A F/A''s pay is based on their option and the average option is 85 hours. A customer service agent averages 160 hours a month based on a 40 hour work week. So a F/A makes approx 3740.00 a month if they fly their option and a Customer Service Agent makes approx 3360.00 a month. Fairly close to the same.
Now lets say that the company changed how you were paid. Let''s say that they paid you for all the time that you were "scheduled" to work, versus block time. They definitly will not pay you at your current rate of 44.00 an hour, so let''s say they adjust your rate to 22.00 an hour. Again this would put you more in line with the CSA.
Now, I looked at a few trip pairings at random and built a fake block using these real trips from current trip pairings. In the block there are 4 - 3 day trips, and 1 - 4 day trip. Total block hours 87.00. Total "Scheduled" hours 144.5 for the month. The first 3 day is scheduled 29.5 hours with 15 hours block. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th 3 day trips are scheduled at 25 hours with 16 hours of block. The 4 day trip is scheduled at 40 hours with 24 hours of block. So at your current pay of 44.00 you would be paid 3828.00 for the month. If you were pid the 22.00 for the 144.5 scheduled hours you would make 3179.00 for the month. This for working 16 days of the month, with 14 off. To return to your original salary, you would have to fly 1 additional 3-4 days trip.
I guess the point I am trying to make (the long way) is that you ARE compensated for those 14 hour days. There is no way the company is going to pay you 44.00 an hour for the time that you are "scheduled" to work. Included in that 44.00 an hour is pay for boarding, gate holds, etc. It is all about how you look at it. With your current pay levels and how you are paid, you fair much better then if you were to try and get paid by when you are "scheduled" to work.
TB said: WE ARE AWAY FROM HOME FOR UP TO 90 HOURS IN A ROW.
MMW says: You knew that when you took the job. If that was going to be a problem for you, then you should have chosen another career path.
TB said: Therefore, sometimes using a sick call for a different reason may be NECESSARY!!
MMW says: Agreed. Unpaid personal days would address that issue. If you chose not to make up the time, then you suffer on payday.
TB said: At least you can go to your childs play, game, or whatever afterwork. We have to go sit in a hotel room.
You can make a doctor''s appointment knowing you are done at 7 p.m. on Thursday. HEY, I am off so I will make an appointment......guess what I just got quick called for a four day trip. I really need to go to the doctor. What other choice do I have? My mother is sick with the flu, she can''t keep my child overnight now. What will I do with her?
See my point? Flight Attendants don''t have the "perk" of flexability that you think they do.
MMW says: I have 10 days off a month, you have 14. Who has more opportunities to schedule things? Even on reserve you have scheduled days off. If you are sick, then by all means use a sick day. That is what they are there for. Sick time is not there to be used to go to a childs play or a baseball game. If those are important for you, then you need to work your schedule around those things. Bid your trips accordingly, trip improve if necessary.
TB you said: You are going against your own words. Flight Attendants work up to 15 HOURS in any given day. We aren''t compensated for that either. When we are boarding passengers an hour before our trip starts and a half of an hour before every leg, we are not being compensated.
MMW says: First of all F/A''s do not "work" for 15 hours in a day. You can only be "scheduled" to be on duty for 14 hours, and can''t be "scheduled" for more then 8 hours of hard time, or "work". Yes during flight irregularities you can be made to go to 15 hours, and block time can go over 8. To say that you are not compensated for the time that you are scheduled versus what you work is inaccurate. Let''s compare like work functions. Agents and F/A''s are a similar, entry level, customer contact work function. Let''s say that a topped out F/A makes 44.00 an hour for hard time. A topped out cutsomer service agents makes 21.00 an hour. A F/A''s pay is based on their option and the average option is 85 hours. A customer service agent averages 160 hours a month based on a 40 hour work week. So a F/A makes approx 3740.00 a month if they fly their option and a Customer Service Agent makes approx 3360.00 a month. Fairly close to the same.
Now lets say that the company changed how you were paid. Let''s say that they paid you for all the time that you were "scheduled" to work, versus block time. They definitly will not pay you at your current rate of 44.00 an hour, so let''s say they adjust your rate to 22.00 an hour. Again this would put you more in line with the CSA.
Now, I looked at a few trip pairings at random and built a fake block using these real trips from current trip pairings. In the block there are 4 - 3 day trips, and 1 - 4 day trip. Total block hours 87.00. Total "Scheduled" hours 144.5 for the month. The first 3 day is scheduled 29.5 hours with 15 hours block. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th 3 day trips are scheduled at 25 hours with 16 hours of block. The 4 day trip is scheduled at 40 hours with 24 hours of block. So at your current pay of 44.00 you would be paid 3828.00 for the month. If you were pid the 22.00 for the 144.5 scheduled hours you would make 3179.00 for the month. This for working 16 days of the month, with 14 off. To return to your original salary, you would have to fly 1 additional 3-4 days trip.
I guess the point I am trying to make (the long way) is that you ARE compensated for those 14 hour days. There is no way the company is going to pay you 44.00 an hour for the time that you are "scheduled" to work. Included in that 44.00 an hour is pay for boarding, gate holds, etc. It is all about how you look at it. With your current pay levels and how you are paid, you fair much better then if you were to try and get paid by when you are "scheduled" to work.
TB said: WE ARE AWAY FROM HOME FOR UP TO 90 HOURS IN A ROW.
MMW says: You knew that when you took the job. If that was going to be a problem for you, then you should have chosen another career path.
TB said: Therefore, sometimes using a sick call for a different reason may be NECESSARY!!
MMW says: Agreed. Unpaid personal days would address that issue. If you chose not to make up the time, then you suffer on payday.
TB said: At least you can go to your childs play, game, or whatever afterwork. We have to go sit in a hotel room.
You can make a doctor''s appointment knowing you are done at 7 p.m. on Thursday. HEY, I am off so I will make an appointment......guess what I just got quick called for a four day trip. I really need to go to the doctor. What other choice do I have? My mother is sick with the flu, she can''t keep my child overnight now. What will I do with her?
See my point? Flight Attendants don''t have the "perk" of flexability that you think they do.
MMW says: I have 10 days off a month, you have 14. Who has more opportunities to schedule things? Even on reserve you have scheduled days off. If you are sick, then by all means use a sick day. That is what they are there for. Sick time is not there to be used to go to a childs play or a baseball game. If those are important for you, then you need to work your schedule around those things. Bid your trips accordingly, trip improve if necessary.
Twicebaked
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Markmywords/PineyBob,
This is the last time I am going to address this issue with either one of you. This is NOT what the thread was intended for.
First off, I am quite aware of the "limitations" of a flight attendant. If I am on duty for up to 15 hours I AM UNDER THE DIRESS OF THE COMPANY! This is NOT my time to do anything I want. I am only getting paid for my flight time. I am not getting paid to sit in PHL or CLT. I also only have 11 days scheduled off a month not 14. I WAS NOT complaining that we are away from home for 90 hours in a row, that is merely a FACT. Please learn to notice the difference. You both read something and automatically turn it into a complaint or negativity. I ask you Mark to go back to your original post and follow down to mine. You will see that is was a comparison to what you said. It was also stating that we don't have the flexibility that you think we do. And we cannot work more than 105 hours in a month. Actually very few can do even that. Most of us can only work to 90 according to the options that we have and our contract. END OF SUBJECT!
This is the last time I am going to address this issue with either one of you. This is NOT what the thread was intended for.
First off, I am quite aware of the "limitations" of a flight attendant. If I am on duty for up to 15 hours I AM UNDER THE DIRESS OF THE COMPANY! This is NOT my time to do anything I want. I am only getting paid for my flight time. I am not getting paid to sit in PHL or CLT. I also only have 11 days scheduled off a month not 14. I WAS NOT complaining that we are away from home for 90 hours in a row, that is merely a FACT. Please learn to notice the difference. You both read something and automatically turn it into a complaint or negativity. I ask you Mark to go back to your original post and follow down to mine. You will see that is was a comparison to what you said. It was also stating that we don't have the flexibility that you think we do. And we cannot work more than 105 hours in a month. Actually very few can do even that. Most of us can only work to 90 according to the options that we have and our contract. END OF SUBJECT!
MarkMyWords
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In that 15 hours you may be on company time, but you are not working the entire 15 hours. If you have a 3 hour productivity break in CLT, you are able to go get something to eat, read a book, talk on the phone, visit with friends or shop. That is not working while you are at work. (And I know it is not your fault you are scheduled that way.)
Your hourly rate of pay takes into consideration the fact that you are not always "working". They had to base your pay rates on someting, so it is based on hard time. If it wasn''t, then do you think your hourly rate would be as high as it is based on an 85-90 hour work month? Check aout the above example.....you are still "working" less then compariable positions with more time off. If they based your pay on scheduled time versus block time, then you could have to work more trips for the same amount of pay.
Your hourly rate of pay takes into consideration the fact that you are not always "working". They had to base your pay rates on someting, so it is based on hard time. If it wasn''t, then do you think your hourly rate would be as high as it is based on an 85-90 hour work month? Check aout the above example.....you are still "working" less then compariable positions with more time off. If they based your pay on scheduled time versus block time, then you could have to work more trips for the same amount of pay.
MarkMyWords
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Not a problem. I would have hoped for a constructive discussion but you seem to be unable to come up with constructive retorts and ideas. Your ranting, raving and name calling isn''t going to produce much of a constructive dialog now is it?
PITbull
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On 6/8/2003 3:25:32 PM MarkMyWords wrote:
Pity,
I understand your level of frustration on this point. Labor relations in concesionary periods are horrible to say the least. No one likes giving up anything with out some return, and yes, we have all given until it hurts and then some.
2 questions, 1) Is Jerry talking to you at all about this sick policy issue? 2) Is there a less public way to get their attention and bring them to the table to talk?
I do agree that all of the senior managers attention is focused on cost cutting, our survival depends on that. I know that the employees are not that only area that is being clobbered to reduce costs, but we are the biggest pinata ( and there is nothing left ). I don't think that MGMT hates their employees or disrespects them. I just think we are in a fight for our life and things have become very a matter of fact. There is no time to tip-toe around and play nice. But that also doesn't mean that we close the doors to two way communication.
If the company is not in talks with you over the issue of your sick policy, and refuses to schedule meetings to discuss it, then you have my full support for your efforts. I do wish there was a less public way to get their attention, and if those avenues have been exhausted, then you are doing what you feel is necessary. If this is the first step in trying to get their attention, then I think it is wrong and other, less public avenues, should have been attempted first.
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On 6/8/2003 3:25:32 PM MarkMyWords wrote:
Pity,
I understand your level of frustration on this point. Labor relations in concesionary periods are horrible to say the least. No one likes giving up anything with out some return, and yes, we have all given until it hurts and then some.
2 questions, 1) Is Jerry talking to you at all about this sick policy issue? 2) Is there a less public way to get their attention and bring them to the table to talk?
I do agree that all of the senior managers attention is focused on cost cutting, our survival depends on that. I know that the employees are not that only area that is being clobbered to reduce costs, but we are the biggest pinata ( and there is nothing left ). I don't think that MGMT hates their employees or disrespects them. I just think we are in a fight for our life and things have become very a matter of fact. There is no time to tip-toe around and play nice. But that also doesn't mean that we close the doors to two way communication.
If the company is not in talks with you over the issue of your sick policy, and refuses to schedule meetings to discuss it, then you have my full support for your efforts. I do wish there was a less public way to get their attention, and if those avenues have been exhausted, then you are doing what you feel is necessary. If this is the first step in trying to get their attention, then I think it is wrong and other, less public avenues, should have been attempted first.
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Mark,
Thank you. I don't know if you had anything to do with this, but this morning the MEC Officers were notified by management to once again discuss the sick. They do not want the pickets, and we will suspend the June 12 picket and leafleting to the public.
We are once again hopeful that an more equitable resolution can be had for both parties, outside of the picketing/leafleting arena. We shall see.
Management has just made a move in the right direction.
Twicebaked
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Markmywords,
Your breath is being wasted. It''s over. It is still being at work! I am not going to battle with you over this. It is your opinion. We''ve all heard it in at least 2-3 posts on this thread. The horse IS DEAD. Stop beating it!!!
Your breath is being wasted. It''s over. It is still being at work! I am not going to battle with you over this. It is your opinion. We''ve all heard it in at least 2-3 posts on this thread. The horse IS DEAD. Stop beating it!!!
MarkMyWords
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On 6/9/2003 11:28:07 AM PITbull wrote:
Mark,
Thanks you. I don''t know if you had anything to do with this, but this morning the MEC Officers were notified by management to once again discuss the sick. They do not want the pickets, and we will suspend the June 12 picket and leafleting to the public.
We are once again hopeful that an more equitable resolution can be had for both parties, outside of the picketing/leafleting arena. We shall see.
Management has just made a move in the right direction.
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On 6/9/2003 11:28:07 AM PITbull wrote:
Mark,
Thanks you. I don''t know if you had anything to do with this, but this morning the MEC Officers were notified by management to once again discuss the sick. They do not want the pickets, and we will suspend the June 12 picket and leafleting to the public.
We are once again hopeful that an more equitable resolution can be had for both parties, outside of the picketing/leafleting arena. We shall see.
Management has just made a move in the right direction.
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I would love to take credit for opening the door to discussion between the company and the AFA, but alas, I don''t have that kind of power.....well at least not that I know of.
I am very encouraged that the two of you are sitting down and opening discussions up again. I hope that both sides come to the table with open minds and creative ideas to solve this issue. I honestly do hope that they once again make the F/A group whole in their sick time, and that the soultions you come up with achieve the same results with less pain for the "good" employees. Please keep us posted on how things are going. You are a creative gal, so I am hoping for big things from you for all of us!
PITbull
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Mark,
With reegard to scheduled days off (or on) for f/as. F/as work 21 days to achieve 105 hours if they are on that option. And you can't change options mid year either; its on a yearly bid.
You seem to know the labor contracts well. I suspect you are in Labor Relations.
With regard to be paid for "off hours; non inflight segments time", we will be pursuing "boarding pay" in future negotiations. That's a promise. Flight attendants board flights and serve the public, clean aircraft after deplanning, and the average pay is 5 hours a day for a 10-12-15 hour day on duty, scheduled or irregular op. 30 minutes before departure time is dead time to the f/a with regard to pay, but mandatory to the co. to start our jobs and responsibilities and service. This is what you call "boarding" AND WE WILL SEEK "BOARDING PAY" AS A FLAT RATE OF PAY (different then flight pay).
We will seek a different "perdium" for these duties, on the same line as, holiday pay, night pay, senior pay, holding pay, etc. Now, what will be under consideration will be "boarJding pay", which will be far less than flight pay, but still, a compensation for "professional service" rendered to the company.
Just an FYI for you and the boys to know...it will be coming at you.
PS. was that above post intended for me?
With reegard to scheduled days off (or on) for f/as. F/as work 21 days to achieve 105 hours if they are on that option. And you can't change options mid year either; its on a yearly bid.
You seem to know the labor contracts well. I suspect you are in Labor Relations.
With regard to be paid for "off hours; non inflight segments time", we will be pursuing "boarding pay" in future negotiations. That's a promise. Flight attendants board flights and serve the public, clean aircraft after deplanning, and the average pay is 5 hours a day for a 10-12-15 hour day on duty, scheduled or irregular op. 30 minutes before departure time is dead time to the f/a with regard to pay, but mandatory to the co. to start our jobs and responsibilities and service. This is what you call "boarding" AND WE WILL SEEK "BOARDING PAY" AS A FLAT RATE OF PAY (different then flight pay).
We will seek a different "perdium" for these duties, on the same line as, holiday pay, night pay, senior pay, holding pay, etc. Now, what will be under consideration will be "boarJding pay", which will be far less than flight pay, but still, a compensation for "professional service" rendered to the company.
Just an FYI for you and the boys to know...it will be coming at you.
PS. was that above post intended for me?
MarkMyWords
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Yes someone on the 105 does have to work approx 21 days, but the majority of F/A's are on the 85-95 hour option and have 12-14 days off. Someone on the 75 or 55 will have even more then that. Pretty logical.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not in labor relations either. I was just very fortuate to have very good friends that are crew members, so I absorbed a lot. I also saw how easy it is to manipulate sick calls and your work schedule. TwiceBaked would have me believe that it is nearly impossilbe to adjust your work schedule if needed, but I know better. It may not always work, but there are opportunities and ways to work your schedule without abusing your sick time.
As for your pursuit of boarding pay, I wish you the best of luck. It is worth the try and the worst the company can say is no. Again, I think that my above examples show that you really are compensated for that time, but it isn't a part of how they figure your pay hours. My numbers may not be right on the money, but I think they are pretty close. Again it is subjective to my views and I know that if you went to a pay system that paid per "scheduled" hour, you would definitly negotiate a better rate then the 22.00 figure I used as an example.
Just curious, what would you feel is an acceptable rate for boarding pay?
Sorry, the previous post was meant for Twice Baked.....we were typing at the same time. LOL
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not in labor relations either. I was just very fortuate to have very good friends that are crew members, so I absorbed a lot. I also saw how easy it is to manipulate sick calls and your work schedule. TwiceBaked would have me believe that it is nearly impossilbe to adjust your work schedule if needed, but I know better. It may not always work, but there are opportunities and ways to work your schedule without abusing your sick time.
As for your pursuit of boarding pay, I wish you the best of luck. It is worth the try and the worst the company can say is no. Again, I think that my above examples show that you really are compensated for that time, but it isn't a part of how they figure your pay hours. My numbers may not be right on the money, but I think they are pretty close. Again it is subjective to my views and I know that if you went to a pay system that paid per "scheduled" hour, you would definitly negotiate a better rate then the 22.00 figure I used as an example.
Just curious, what would you feel is an acceptable rate for boarding pay?
Sorry, the previous post was meant for Twice Baked.....we were typing at the same time. LOL
PITbull
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On 6/9/2003 12
27 PM MarkMyWords wrote:
Just curious, what would you feel is an acceptable rate for boarding pay?
Sorry, the previous post was meant for Twice Baked.....we were typing at the same time. LOL
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On 6/9/2003 12
27 PM MarkMyWords wrote: Just curious, what would you feel is an acceptable rate for boarding pay?
Sorry, the previous post was meant for Twice Baked.....we were typing at the same time. LOL
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firstamendment
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On 6/6/2003 6:08:00 PM MarkMyWords wrote:
Not management here. Everyone that holds a different opinion the PitBull is considered management to her.
As for the press coverage....you are rockin! KDKA and 1 newspaper! Man, sure do hope they didn''t get in the way of the huge picket line! LOL
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I use to feel the same way about PITBULL, but take a look at a few things. Now maybe the entire industry really sucks, but since all of these concessions, approved yes but because of threats, the airline is falling apart. How do you push back airplanes with little help? How do you clean the airplanes with little help? How do you get bags on the planes and the flight out ontime with little help? How do you get that full A330 with 266 passengers to London on time without a five hour delay because of crew shortages(this happened to me)with little help? It goes on and on. Meanwhile, the jerks in CCY are crunching the numbers and customer service goes to hell. Pitbull is one of many fighting to stop the tide of contractual abuses and continual staff cutbacks. So because the economy is bad, the employees are to blame? The big airlines did it to themselves. U hasn''t done anything to increase revenue. They just keep cutting and cutting and cutting. Mind you, it is alot about the way this team of "Daves" run things. They smile and cut with all the charm they can muster and shame you into believing if you do not go along, you are not a team player. This is idiotic.On 6/6/2003 6:08:00 PM MarkMyWords wrote:
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On 6/6/2003 3:12:03 PM golden1 wrote:
SoMMW is MGMT EH?
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On 6/6/2003 3:12:03 PM golden1 wrote:
SoMMW is MGMT EH?
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Not management here. Everyone that holds a different opinion the PitBull is considered management to her.
As for the press coverage....you are rockin! KDKA and 1 newspaper! Man, sure do hope they didn''t get in the way of the huge picket line! LOL
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I learned along time ago that I can seperate my intense hatred for management and still provide superior service. I am mature enough to know the difference, so my "attitude" in case it is of concern is just fine, thank you, but lets take a look at what Sherry Hendry. V.P. of inflight said in defense to cutting staffing on the Transatlantic flight on the 767 and 330''s. She stated that we are keeping in line with the staffing of other carriers.
Reality...U has either 15 or 16 flights a day to Europe...16...compared to the big boys, this is a fraction of flights....16. May 1 staffing-767-7 f/as...June 1-6 f/as....May 1-10 f/as...June 1- 9 f/as. Now you may think, whats the big deal, but I will tell you....SERVICE SERVICE SERVICE. We had a beautiful Envoy service that has now been simplified from our pleniful 16 flights a day....16. The service is at best adequate, but only to the American carriers. We compete with BA, Luftansa, and Air France. I will promise you they have kept their service nice for those top dollar fliers. ALSO, 16 flights a day is 16 less f/a postions a day. All this because Sherry believes that the staffing for a better service doesn''t justify the money spent.
I say, if 16 flights a day are going to make or break this company, then its time to close it down. Again, a short sided, impulsive move...and originally thay wanted 5 on the 767 and 8 on the 330 until they were remonded that with min. staffing, if someone gets sick, the flight is cancelled...duh!!
I live in NYC and I can tell you that I am angered at this industry and U inparticularly because they have decided to use and abuse what happened on Sept. 11 for their own arrogant, cost slashing, force dejure'' bull**** way of running an industry. The last body hadn''t hurled out of the buildings before some sick sob started the master plan to cut back and break the unions, using all the while the events of Sept. 11. If I were a person into conspiracies, WHICH I AM NOT, I could swear this was planned to break the carriers. That one event gave the power to US Airways to cut away everything they wanted.
Retirement of 737-200''s, DC9/MD80s, F100''2, areason to feel good about Metrojets failure and leverage to throw the co into bk to bring down cost. Fine, but how have they done so? THREATS THREATS THREATS THREATS THREATS THREATS THREATS!!!!!
We are continuing to only look at numbers and not service. Shrinking us into profitability will not work. It never has. Pity the international passengers from STAR ALLIANCE that have to endure the low level of service fron yet another poorly ran US airliner.
So when you start puttind down Ms. Pitbull, remember some of what I shared.
I''ll say it again folks. It''s all about leadership. We have number crunchers in Crystal City but no leadership. Until that changes, we may never see the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel. It is not the employees who provide the leadership. It is the management. And they are not doing it. Period. And let me add one more thing: In the beginning I was a Seigel supporter. Big time. I (naively) thought he was different. He has shown to be no different. At all. And that is frightening. Because this company needs someone who will lead. Find us a leader Dave. You''re the numbers expert as you''ve shown. Now find someone who knows how to run an airline.
mr
mr
