Pilots Slam AA With New Billboard

[FrequentFlierCA]

Do you have any facts or figures to back up your babbling about pilots? From what you've posted, you appear to not have a clue. The real numbers suggest that the pilots agree with the current APA leadership. This is backed by record participation at APA meetings and events. Since they were democratically elected, base meeting attendance has been staggering. Even at the DFW base, the APA president was elected over the incumbent by a 2/1 margin (1200 vs 600). While I'm sure you could get a few out of 10,000 pilots to voice some disagreement about tactics, even I might do some things differently, the overwhelming majority are disgusted with the company leadership of the last several years and support APA.

I don't know whether or not the majority of pilots support the APA's current tactics, but one thing I am sure of is that they are not going to work. The company is not going to give APA what it is demanding. It would literally bankrupt AMR and they will not do it.

The only thing APA is succeeding in accomplishing is raising the expectations of its members to unrealistic levels. Until they start showing some flexibility and acting like the professionals they allegedly are, they'll be working under the same contract they have today. For years to come... It is entirely up to them.

 

[Winglet]

It matter not what the APA does or does not do. The company is so poorly managed and looted by PUP bonuses that the pilots are of zero consequence. Management does not care about the employee groups. It proves this time and again. Even if the pilots were to work for FREE, the company will still fail. The only ones to profit will be the "usual" ones.

My guess is that foreign ownership laws will be changed by Congress and the President and US airlines will be sold out to foreigners, just like everything else in this country. I expect that Mr. Arpey will gladly sell the company (for a cut of the action, of course) and BA will pick AA up on the cheap.

 

[Mach85ER]

The only thing APA is succeeding in accomplishing is raising the expectations of its members to unrealistic levels. Until they start showing some flexibility and acting like the professionals they allegedly are, they'll be working under the same contract they have today. For years to come... It is entirely up to them.

We haven't even reached the point where we would be given a chance to show some flexibility.

Wow, we asked for a big number at the start of negotiations. Big deal, it happens all the time. I must have missed the counter offer other than the scumbag low ball position they've had from day one, that is, "you can work overtime for straight pay to make more money". Big demands happen all the time in negotiations, so what. The small things set the tone. As it stands now, AA won't even address increasing the death by terrorism payout in our contract. This is from the bunch that refused to strengthen cockpit doors pre 9/11 even with evidence of many cockpit attacks worldwide.

We'd should extreme flexibility in the past and look for the same in AA's leadership. The scumbags thought about it for a second and said, "No thanks, the PUP thing works for us".

 

[Jackrla]

1. It matter not what the APA does or does not do.
2. The company is so poorly managed and looted by PUP bonuses that the pilots are of zero consequence. Management does not care about the employee groups. It proves this time and again.

You may be right about both, but if you are right about No. 2, you may still be wrong about No. 1.
For example, the union(s), assuming there is a release from mediation, could in theory push the matter to a PEB (if you get past mediation, you will get one whether you like it or not) making a case for corrective action due to a proven case of mismanagement (assuming you make a case), obtain PEB recommendations that are favorable. If you win the rececommendations, the company will likely accept. If they don't, congressional intervention is almost guaranteed (whether you want it or not); regardless of party, politicians will not want a strike. Congressional intervention raises the stakes for everyone, highlights issues, and a resolution process will be under scrutiny.
If you have a plan the incorporates (acknowledges) an orderly resolution, you can hopefully get out of mediation once you establish further mediation will be fruitless.
However, if you go this route, you need to be preparing for a PEB in advance because things will happen quickly. You also need to make sure you are "represented" in the formation of the Congressional resolution process (dust off the lobbyist if you got them) that will be needed if the PEB recommendations are rejected by either party.
As I understand it from reading the posts, the goals seems to be the best jobs possible, pensions, a real form of gain and pain sharing, and management accountability.

 

[Winglet]

Unfortunately, APA is now being led by a much more radical group than in the past. They have made ludacris promises to their constituents that have no chance of being delivered.

Compared to the past group of Arpey's lapdogs, the new APA leadership is smart to management tactics and isn't going to roll over to an incompetent management that is destroying the airline. The APA leadership has made NO promises except to fight hard (for a change) for the pilots of the airline. Management would like to blame the employees for the woes of the airline, but that same old lie isn't flushing anymore, especially when the senior managers take tens of millions of dollars for running the airline into the ground.

Mrs McFly, the management shill, is using the same old tired tactics (although it sometimes works) of painting the pilots as "radicals" intent on destroying the airline. Unfortunately, this management team doesn't need any help to do that.

 

[eolesen]

FWIW, my ALPA friends see APA's approach as idiocracy at it's finest. Then again, they've all had to live under contracts subject to arbrogation. APA members by and large haven't (aside from the TW survivors plus the few who might have started over after PA or EA failed).

As I've said many times before - A A employees only think they've had it rough. They got an unwanted pat on the ass while the rest of the bankrupt carriers' employee's got gang-raped.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

FWIW, my ALPA friends see APA's approach as idiocracy at it's finest. Then again, they've all had to live under contracts subject to arbrogation. APA members by and large haven't (aside from the TW survivors plus the few who might have started over after PA or EA failed).

As I've said many times before - A A employees only think they've had it rough. They got an unwanted pat on the ass while the rest of the bankrupt carriers' employee's got gang-raped.

Exactly right. And (while I can't speak for eolesen) I don't think either of us thinks your concessions were small or that we'd try to minimize the impact they have had on you and your families.

My point is that you have to look at the industry in the context of its current state, which right now is $140 oil and intense competitive pressures. On the whole, AA employees are better off than their industry peers, and it could get a whole lot worse. It's my opinion that one hope from stopping it getting worse is flexibility on the part of the negotiating teams (on both sides).

 

[WingNaPrayer]

Don't forget - AA's NON unionized employees outnumber all the represented groups combined. They have NO negotiating team, they have NO say in what happens to them or their pay/benefits, they have NO vote.

With the fear of pending layoffs (after AA gets a hard summer out of them then kicks them to the curb) things are only going to get worse, much worse.

If ever apathy quickly became the motto of a company, AA is staring down the gun barrel of it as we speak.

 

[FWAAA]

Don't forget - AA's NON unionized employees outnumber all the represented groups combined. They have NO negotiating team, they have NO say in what happens to them or their pay/benefits, they have NO vote.

Interesting math you use there. Approximately 26,000 TWU-represented employees, 19,000 APFA-represented FAs plus over 9,000 APA-represented pilots totals about 54,000 represented employees. As of 12/31/07, American Airlines had 71,800 FTE employees. So how is it that non-union employees outnumber unionized?

And they have a complete say in what happens to them - they're free to take their skills elsewhere, completely free of the seniority millstone worn by the represented employees.

 

[eolesen]

Non-union only accounted for about 20% of the employees when I was there.

The math is a little more complicated than in FWAAA's post, though. FTE's and employees are not interchangeable.

If the 71,800 you're quoting is really FTE' and not physical employees, you have to adjust the FTE value to account for the number of part-timers and how many hours they're scheduled to work.

Likewise, the 26,000 TWU members would need to be compressed into FTE's to account for the part-timers in some job titles (not all). That's more than just a rounding error if you figure FT vs. PT to be 80%/20% in the hubs.

Over the last five years I was at AA, the non-union population was just slightly less than that of the TWU employees.

 

[Boomer]

Through the questionable "Total Value Statements" each employee recieves: I think it would be constructive to build an CASM chart by Job Category and Contract Group.

Lets' face it: AMR has not been gathering the data for no reason.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

completely free of the seniority millstone worn by the represented employees.

That part I disagree with, as agents started finding out that Senior Agents will be allowed to bump Junior Agents Re: the upcoming layoffs. They aren't union, and there is no way for them to do battle on this.

It really sucks that someone with say 18 years with the company can be thrown out of their job for no reason other than the fact that someone across the country has 18 years and 1 day with the company. (just as an example) I can't wait to hear any agent who, at an agent's salary is dumb enough to try to bump into MIA - once they get a taste of the cost of living in South Florida, they'll be crying to go back where they came from.

With regard to my "math" above, my apologies as I mis-spoke. What I meant to say was that the non-represented group is larger than any one of the represented groups. I think that is a fair statement, although I didn't realize the twu had so many. With numbers like that it is a shame that they appear to be worthless as a bargaining agent.

Anyway, this bumping crap be an employee represented or not is going to tear employee groups apart as once team players start bumping their friends out of a job. AA is always looking for a way to divide and conquer labor - this is just one of the many methods they will use while these contract negotiations are looming.