Anybody have any idea on the usair seniority? How many pilots and when the merger occurs how will effect the aa pilots? And if your an aa pilot why would you want to push the merger ? Sounds to me they will not be very many promotions almost sounds like a few pilots will bumped down in equipnent.
pilots seniority
- Thread starter dfw gen
- Start date
nycbusdriver
Veteran
There are just under 6,000 US Airways pilots (my guess.) About 1800 are PHX-based former America West (called "west pilots") who fly mostly A320-series and a few B757s. About 3,800?? are original US Airways pilot (which comprise the merged groups of USAir, "original" PIedmont, "original" PSA, "ex-Eastern" Trump Shuttle, and Empire.) Most, if not all, Mohawk and something-else-I-can't-remember airline have since retired. The original US Airways pilots (called "east pilots") are based in CLT, PHL, and DCA. They fly a few remaining 737-300s, the A320-series (by far the largest fleet,) B757-767 combined bid, and the A330-series.
The east and west US Airways pilots have been at loggerheads with each other since the merger was announced in May, 2005, and in an all-out war since an ALPA orchestrated seniority list integration came out of an arbitration in May, 2007. More that 6 years have elapsed since that "award," and the pilots are still not operationally integrated. Both sides have been far to busy suing each other in the interim to the tune of nearly $10 million by now. Depending on who you ask, there is either no end in sight or the APA will come in and make things final. As long as the federal courts are involved, the resolution is anybody's guess.
All that being said, I don't think any AA pilots are in danger of losing anything. If the pilot groups agree on a merged list, there will likely be equipment and base fences for many years allowing each side to reap a good portion of the retirement attrition. If it goes to arbitration under the federal McCaskill-Bond law, the result is anybody's guess. Arbitrators typically don't put in place very long or very strong fences, but it will likely be slotted by seat and equipment if recent history is any indicator.
Bottom line: Unless we have another huge incident a la 9/11, no pilot will move down in terms of what he/she is doing right now.
Piedmont1984
Veteran
- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,737
- 897
Don't think so. Whether negotiated or arbitrated, nobody should be hurt. You will become familiar with the phrase 'no bump, no flush'. I've been with the airline 29.2 years and have absolutely no expectation of flying anything bigger than the 767 or 330 and may choose to finish up on the narrowbody Airbus simply because I prefer to get my 8 hours of sleep at night. Nor do I have any desire to be based in any AA bases. The only thing I want absolutely no fence around is the call sign
The A330 is also in the same highest pay group with the 777 and the 787 in the combined agreement.
What should mitigate the usual fighting is the upcoming retirements. over the next 6-7 years, something like 40% of the USAir pilots retire and 25% of the combined LCC/AA group. After 7 years the AA retirement numbers really skyrocket.
What should mitigate the usual fighting is the upcoming retirements. over the next 6-7 years, something like 40% of the USAir pilots retire and 25% of the combined LCC/AA group. After 7 years the AA retirement numbers really skyrocket.
Piedmont1984
Veteran
- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,737
- 897
Yep, I'll be out to pasture in 3.5.
There aren't quite that many pilots at US. US East has about 2,600 pilots and US West has about 1,400, for a total of about 4,000. The wholly-owned regionals have about 800 more.
AA has about 8,400 active mainline pilots and another 1,200 or so who have deferred their return from furlough.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Of course, I should bow to the authority of an American Airlines employee when it comes to definitive numbers of US Airways pilots. You are correct that there are not QUITE that number of US Airways pilots. The number I gave (when added up) was 5,600 with several ??? thrown in. But the number is still north of 5,000.
http://usairlinepilo...1779&Itemid=518
Perhaps we can find a stock clerk that knows EVERYTHING and he will give us the exact number, their birth dates, cities of residence and blood type.
I'm not an employee of AMR or any of its subsidiaries. Your CEO and other executives signed off on the 10-K and that's where I got my numbers (2,600 East and 1,400 West). My guess was that those who issue the paychecks know how many pilots the airline employs. The 5,200 number on the pretend-union website (USAPA) is perhaps the total number of pilots both active and on furlough the day the US East pilots voted to try to slink away from their binding arbitration result with which they disagree. Maybe there are still 5,200 total active and furloughed pilots today.
Speaking of that arbitration award, the NIC decision discloses that at the time of the merger of US and HP, US had 5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough. HP, on the other hand, had 1,894 pilots, all active.
By January 1, 2007, US East had 3,005 active pilots and US West had 1,829 active pilots.
The 5,200 may be correct if it includes all the furloughed US East pilots.
Thanks a lot - now I have to clean my screen.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
I'm not an employee of AMR or any of its subsidiaries. Your CEO and other executives signed off on the 10-K and that's where I got my numbers (2,600 East and 1,400 West). My guess was that those who issue the paychecks know how many pilots the airline employs. The 5,200 number on the pretend-union website (USAPA) is perhaps the total number of pilots both active and on furlough the day the US East pilots voted to try to slink away from their binding arbitration result with which they disagree. Maybe there are still 5,200 total active and furloughed pilots today.
Speaking of that arbitration award, the NIC decision discloses that at the time of the merger of US and HP, US had 5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough. HP, on the other hand, had 1,894 pilots, all active.
By January 1, 2007, US East had 3,005 active pilots and US West had 1,829 active pilots.
The 5,200 may be correct if it includes all the furloughed US East pilots.
Thanks a lot - now I have to clean my screen.
I know exactly how many furloughed east pilots there are: ZERO. Have been no east furloughs for several years.
In fact, the east has been hiring off the street for at least a year, and some west fuloughed pilots have taken east new-hire slots while they wait out the merger integration.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
- 6,907
The East pilots had their say......
There are some issues that will be addressed in a Phoenix courthouse starting on 10/22
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
CASE NO. CV-13-00471-PHX-ROS
FIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT
FOR DECLARATORY
JUDGMENT ON DUTY OF FAIR
REPRESENTATION AND ORDER
ENJOINING PILOT
INTEGRATION THAT DOES NOT
USE THE NICOLAU AWARD
SENIORITY LIST
Don ADDINGTON; John BOSTIC;
Mark BURMAN; Afshin IRANPOUR;
Roger VELEZ; Steve WARGOCKI;
Michael J. SOHA; Rodney Albert
BRACKIN; and George MALIGA, on
behalf of themselves and all
similarly situated former America
West pilots,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
US AIRLINE PILOTS ASS’N, an
unincorporated association; and
US AIRWAYS, INC., a Delaware
corporation,
Defendants.
INTRODUCTION AND PARTIES
1. In 2005, US Airways (a bankruptcy debtor) and America West
Airlines merged to form a new airline also called US Airways.
2. The pilots on both sides of that merger (the “East Pilots” from
US Airways and the “West Pilots” from America West) agreed to an
arbitrated merger of their separate seniority lists.
3. That arbitration was conducted by George Nicolau and an
award creating a merged seniority list (the “Nicolau Award&rdquo was
wasannounced in May 2007.
4. The East Pilots immediately repudiated their agreement to treat
the Nicolau Award as final and binding.
5. In mid 2007, the East Pilots formed a single-airline union,
Defendant US Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA&rdquo, to oust the multiairline
, to oust the multiairlineunion that was representing these pilots, the Airline Pilots
Association (“ALPA&rdquo.
.6. At the time, ALPA (which they could not control) was ordering
the east Pilots to use the Nicolau Award list.
7. The East Pilots formed USAPA and ousted ALPA because their
majority status in the post-merger airline allowed them to control a
single-airline union that only represented US Airways pilots.
8. In April 2008, USAPA succeeded ALPA as the bargaining
representative.
9. Under East Pilot control, USAPA also repudiated the agreement
to honor the Nicolau Award.
10. The West Pilots have been engaged in litigation with USAPA
since October 2008 to defend the Nicolau Award.
11. Most recently, USAPA entered into a contract with US Airways
that further repudiates USAPA’s duty to honor the Nicolau Award.
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 134
22. Defendant USAPA is an unincorporated association with a
principal place of business in Charlotte, North Carolina.
23. Defendant US Airways, Inc., is a Delaware corporation having
its principal place of business in Tempe, Arizona.
24. The Allied Pilots Association (“APA&rdquo is an unincorporated
is an unincorporatedassociation with a principal place of business in Fort Worth, Texas.
25. APA is not named as a defendant.
arbitration.
47. The East Merger Committee argued in the arbitration that the
East Pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were entitled to
seniority rights based upon their dates of hire at US Airways, even if that
would put hundreds of them ahead of West Pilots who were not on
furlough.
48. The West Merger Committee argued that West Pilots who had
been active at the time of the merger should be placed ahead of East
Pilots who were on furlough at the time of the merger.
49. Subject to predefined conditions that protected its economic
interests, US Airways agreed in advance to accept the outcome of the
arbitration as the final resolution of this seniority integration dispute.
50. Mr. Nicolau issued his decision on May 1, 2007, in a document
referred to as the Nicolau Award.
51. Mr. Nicolau rejected the date-of-hire integration advocated by
the east Pilots because “merging active pilots with furloughees, despite
the length of service of some of the latter, is not at all fair or equitable
under any of the stated criteria.”
52. The Nicolau Award created an integrated seniority list that
placed approximately 500 of the most senior East Pilots at the top of the list because they flew wide-body aircraft and no West Pilot flew such aircraft.53. At the other end, the Nicolau Award placed all East Pilots who
were on furlough when the airlines merged at the bottom of the list
because they did not bring jobs to the merger.
54. The Nicolau Award blended the remainder of the two pilot lists.
55. On December 20, 2007, the Airline accepted the Nicolau Award
integrated seniority list.
56. The East MEC appealed to ALPA’s Executive Committee to
overturn the Nicolau Award.
57. ALPA’s Executive Committee ordered the East Pilots to
implement the Nicolau Award.
58. In May 2007, East Pilot Stephen Bradford began to plan to
create a new union (USAPA) to oust ALPA.
59. Upon information and belief, Mr. Bradford envisioned that East
Pilots would control USAPA because they were in the majority.
60. Upon information and belief, Mr. Bradford reasoned that
USAPA, unlike ALPA, would “protect” East Pilot interests over those of
the West Pilots.
61. A representation election between USAPA and ALPA was held in
early 2008.
62. USAPA won the election and began to represent a bargaining
unit comprised of both pilot groups on April 18, 2008.
63. Later in 2008, USAPA presented, and to this day has not
withdrawn, a date-of-hire seniority proposal to US Airways—a proposal
that would put hundreds of West Pilots below the East pilots who were
on furlough at the time of the merger.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
- 6,907
s. (Doc. 95 at 10:17 to 11:6.)
130. There is a substantial controversy, therefore, between the West
Pilots and USAPA as to whether the West Pilots have a right to
participate in the MOU Seniority Integration process.
131. Consequently, there is a substantial controversy, between
parties having adverse legal interests, of sufficient immediacy and reality
to warrant the issuance of a declaratory judgment.
132. The West Pilots are entitled, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2201, to
an order declaring that they have party status and the right (but not the
obligation) to participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the
MOU Seniority Integration process.
V. Prayer for Relief
130. There is a substantial controversy, therefore, between the West
Pilots and USAPA as to whether the West Pilots have a right to
participate in the MOU Seniority Integration process.
131. Consequently, there is a substantial controversy, between
parties having adverse legal interests, of sufficient immediacy and reality
to warrant the issuance of a declaratory judgment.
132. The West Pilots are entitled, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2201, to
an order declaring that they have party status and the right (but not the
obligation) to participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the
MOU Seniority Integration process.
V. Prayer for Relief
Plaintiffs respectfully ask the Court for the following relief:
133. Judgment that USAPA violated the duty of fair representation
by, among other things, entering into a contract, the MOU, that provided
substantially better wages for East Pilots without requiring their
agreement to implement the Nicolau Award list;
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 134 Filed 08/02/13 Page 16 of 18
17
45860778.4
134. Judgment that USAPA is continuing to violate the duty of fair
representation by insisting that it will use a date-of–hire seniority list
rather than the Nicolau Award list;
135. Judgment that US Airways, with the consent of USAPA, is in
breach of the implied covenant of the Transition Agreement;
136. An injunction requiring Defendants to conduct seniority
integration according to the MOU procedures but using the seniority
order in the Nicolau Award list to order the US Airways pilots;
137. Judgment that the West Pilots are entitled to an order declaring
that they have party status and the right (but not the obligation) to
participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the MOU Seniority
Integration process; and
138. Judgment awarding Plaintiffs the reasonable litigation
expenses, including attorneys fees, incurred since 2008 protecting the
fair representation rights of the US Airways Pilots.
Dated this 2nd day of August, 2013.
POLSINELLI PC
By /s/ Jennifer J. Axel_________
Marty Harper
Andrew S. Jacob
Jenifer Axel
CityScape
One East Washington St., Ste. 1200
Phoenix, AZ 85004
Attorneys for West Pilots- Banned
- #13
Perhaps you need to learn the difference between a 737-300 vs 737-400, since US doesnt fly the 300 anymore, and the 400 has two overwing emergency exits.
Let me help you out here.
737-300:
737-400
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Sure, it was a slip up on my part, and of course I know the difference, since one of us (me or you?) has over 6,000 captain hours logged in both the -300 and -400, as well as some -200. I do acknowledge that you probably supplied parts for the true IAM professionals who fixed and maintained my airplanes over the years.
Can you tell me my blood type, though? Better yet, my cholesteral numbers to save me from going to the lab and getting stuck.
After all, you DO know it all, don't you?
