Pilot Whose Gun Went Off Back on Job

[Ralph]

Some of you just don't seem capable of understanding the meaning of "stick to the topic. Do not try to hijack the thread and turn it into an East vs. West/anti-ALPA/pro-USAPA discussion". Posts have been deleted. Time off can be awarded and if further posts of that ilk appear, the thread will be closed.

 

[FA Mikey]

not to excuse his performance that day, but I have spoken to others in the program, the design of the holster is faulty, accidental discharge has happened before, I believe thats what saved him.

No pending legal action against the maker of the supposedly faulty holster. No change in the program using the holster. I wasnt the holster it was the guy using it.

 

[ebwgs]

What's the problem with guns? They are nothing but an inanimate object...the same as your car, a baseball bat, your TV remote, a case of beer, etc.

Guns have a purpose and a place. They are a tool. In the hands of a skilled shooter, they can used to perform incredible displays of talent and skill in competition. They can be used to bring food to the table. They can be used to protect your life from something (or someone) wishing to do you harm.

But they can also be a dangerous thing when in the hand of the inexperienced or fool hearty. And so can your car, a baseball bat, that case of beer. And the list can go on.

If you don't like guns, that is, of course, your choice. If you are uncomfortable around them, its best to avoid them. But a gun, by itself, is nothing more then a paperweight.

In the hands of a responsbile gun owner/handler, a gun is a perfectly harmless object until the moment that deadly force is justifed. I carry a gun almost every time I leave my house, but being an LEO, that is not a shocking thing. It is loaded with a full magazine capacity and yes, one in the pipe...it is locked and loaded, ready for business if the need arises. But guess what, especially with my off duty/personal carry guns...about the only time leave the holster is when I clean them. If I don't need to have it out, I don't. But that doesn't mean that I'm not sitting with it on my hip in the car next to you at the traffic light, in the booth at the restaurant, at the movie theater, the local mall, any outdoor event I attend, etc. And you will never know I have it with me. That's called "being responsible." Not only am I handling the weapon responibly, but I am taking responsibility for my own safety. Not because I'm a LEO, but because I'm a citizen of the United States and its my Constitutional right to do so. I will not take action with my sidearm unless there is no other option. But it is not the gun taking that action...it is me.

If a pilot is approved to carry a firearm on the flight deck, as long as they are properly trained, I have no issue with it. In fact, I work with 3 airline pilots at my LEO job. I can assure you, they are ALL FFDOs.


The problem in this instance was that the pilot mishandled the weapon, in a manner we are not totally privy to, but clearly with an unsafe result. It was not the gun that was the problem...it was the person holding/handling it. And that boils down to whether the person was properly trained, properly skilled and had the right mindset to be in possession of that firearm.

I don't question their ability to safely and properly fly the airraft...but I do question their ability to safely handle a firearm.

This rant belongs in an NRA forum. I'm happy the man got his job back. And I don't like guns. So, we'll agree to disagree on that issue, but on the topic at hand I'm glad the man is once again able to pursue his career.

 

[N965VJ]

No pending legal action against the maker of the supposedly faulty holster. No change in the program using the holster. I wasnt the holster it was the guy using it.

I fault the stupid TSA procedures.

Video link of the holster.

 

[ClueByFour]

not to excuse his performance that day, but I have spoken to others in the program, the design of the holster is faulty, accidental discharge has happened before, I believe thats what saved him.

There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. There are negligent discharges.

And if the holster design is that bad, why is the program still using it?

 

[FA Mikey]

I fault the stupid TSA procedures.

Video link of the holster.

The procedure of locking a loaded gun?

Yea I really want a pilot kit bag or personal bag left out or stolen and some yahoo inside security with a unlocked loaded weapon. There is only one reason to remove the gun from the holster on an airplane and that is to use it. Other wise it should be properly seated in the holster. If it had not been removed from the holster you could put that padlock on and off a hundred times and never have a problem. The only there would be, is if a pilot took it out to show off to his FO, or the FA he is trying to show off to.

 

[N965VJ]

And if the holster design is that bad, why is the program still using it?

Because the TSA is run by morons.

Yea I really want a pilot kit bag or personal bag left out or stolen and some yahoo inside security with a unlocked loaded weapon.

Somehow thousands of LEOs fly armed every day without stupid TSA holster procedures.

 

[WhatBag?]

Listen, the bottom line is the negligence of the entire industry. Airlines all around the world are still taking deliveries of aircraft that leave the cockpit vulnerable. Design the cockpit to be self contained, but NOOOOOO, that would take away an opportunity for more seats. It is the GREED of this industry that put cabin crews and consequently this particular pilot in danger to start with. How many years we're we warned in RT that the next great threat was terrorism and when it happened, we were some how shocked?!?! Give the guy a break or make him put the bullet in his pocket like Barney.

 

[FA Mikey]

Somehow thousands of LEOs fly armed every day without stupid TSA holster procedures.

They are also very well very well trained. Like the old joke the difference between God and a pilot. Here we can say the difference between a pilot and a LEO? The LEO doesnt think he is a pilot. When the pilots go through a full police acadamy course, then we can talk. But a weekend cowboy retreat just doesnt cut it for me.

 

[cleardirect]

Because the TSA is run by morons.


Somehow thousands of LEOs fly armed every day without stupid TSA holster procedures.

I somewhat agree with that. However the FFDO program is strictly voluntary. If said pilot did not like the procedures or the holster or did not agree with the way things were run. It is simple, quit and return the equipment.

Again my problem with this is that he failed to follow procedure. He displayed poor judgment. If he displays poor judgment handling a deadly weapon it brings into question his judgment in handling a jet aircraft. Does he think he knows better in all aspects of life or just when it comes to guns?

Rules are rules, follow them or pay the consequences.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I work as a reserve law enforcement officer and have for 13 years. I have to demonstrate proficiency annually at the minimum and have countless training sessions on tactics and concepts. We use training guns, we use simunition, we have trick targets on the range, etc. This is a continuous process and you experience it the same in your 25th year as you do in your rookie year. It NEVER stops.

I'm not an FFDO, but I looked into the program. Your above description sounds very much like what the FFDO program constitutes as far as training and continuing requalification.

Do you really think the federal government just hands a pistol to any pilot that sends in the application and expects no training or continued proficiency? It certainly sounds that way from your post. You couldn't be more wrong.

The pilot in question did nothing that hasn't happened countless times to full-time law enforcement officers in every department. Thankfully it doesn't happen often, and probably rarely results in injury. But this pilot is a human being, just like you and your law enforcement colleagues. So, how about skipping the training/proficiency/qualification lectures?

 

[nycbusdriver]

There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. There are negligent discharges.

And if the holster design is that bad, why is the program still using it?

They're a government bureaucracy. Changing it would be an admission of error. That doesn't come easily to government bureaucracies. I thought that fact was common knowledge.

 

[N965VJ]

But a weekend cowboy retreat just doesnt cut it for me.

Right. There are no FFDOs with a military or LEO background. There are no FFDOs that are NRA instructors or have a concealed carry permit for their civilian life. They all just joined the program on their own time and expense to show the hot stewardesses what a cowboy they are.

A number of States don’t even require any training for a concealed carry permit. Heck, in Vermont you don’t even need a permit. Mandate everyone carry one of those stupid TSA holsters and see what happens.

 

[FA Mikey]

Its a ridiculous program that lets typical yahoos feel important carrying a gun. I am sure there are people who were exmilitary, I am also sure they are not the ones taking it out of the holster to show it off on decent for landing.

Unless you open the door for the cockpit there is no need to have a gun. If you do open the door to see something or to take a shot, you are too short on the brains God gave you.i

 

[pjirish317]

Again my problem with this is that he failed to follow procedure. He displayed poor judgment. If he displays poor judgment handling a deadly weapon it brings into question his judgment in handling a jet aircraft. Does he think he knows better in all aspects of life or just when it comes to guns?

Rules are rules, follow them or pay the consequences.

Fair enough. How many DUI's does Doug Parker have? Yet his poor judgement does not come into question? What if he had killed a family because of his poor judgement? I do not see you berating him (Doug Parker that is) for his poor judgement. He still drives. Were you in the cockpit with the pilot in question or are you just speculating on him not following proper proceedures? Did you talk to his FO? Do you have first hand knowledge of the incident? Because if you were not in the cockpit with him, or have never talked to his F/O, then you are just speculating at this point. You have no idea as to what actually happened in the cockpit that day do you? You do not agree that this pilot should still be flying. Get over it already, he is back to work. Just like Doug is still driving. If you are going to berate one, berate all for "poor judgement".