Phl Question

mweiss

Veteran
Aug 28, 2002
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So I was just in PHL today, and watched what was going on in the evening rush. One thing I saw didn't make sense to me.

27L and R were the actives, and 27R was being used for all arrivals, while 27L was being used for all departures. It was a perfect VFR day. I'm trying to understand why both runways can't be used for both functions simultaneously.

Here's how I could envision something like this working:
Instead of arrivals being spaced along the glide path at minimum separation (I don't have MATS handy so I forget exactly how far apart they're supposed to be...three miles comes to mind), add an additional, say, 25%. Then departures could fit in this window between arrivals, with enough room to spare to handle the delay in getting the departing aircraft's takeoff roll started.

Now we've cut this one runway's landing capacity by to 75% of its original value. But there's a second runway where we can put more flights! If we implement the exact same strategy on the other, we now have 150% of the original landing capacity of the airport. I know simultaneous landings can be done on runways closer than PHL's during VFR conditions; SFO does it all the time.

The cool part is we've done exactly the same thing with takeoffs. Cut each runway to 75%, but the sum total is 150% of the original capacity.

So, can anyone explain why this hasn't been done?
 
We had a representive of the FAA at a meeting some time back. He asked us for suggestions on a particular problem that faces the industry. He was offered 5 or 6 suggestions and promptly shot every one of them down for reasons as ridiculous as "the controller's union won't like it". After that nobody bothered. Good luck selling them on anything that wasn't their idea to start with.

A320 Driver
 
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"the controller's union won't like it"????? Have these guys ever heard about what happened in 1981 when the controller's union didn't like something?
 
One reason I know for a fact is due to the taxi logisitcs.

Landing on 27L puts a plane far down at the West end of the field, giving a long taxi return. Conversely, landing on 27R puts any plane within shouting distance of the terminal after taking one of the high speed turnoffs.

Likewise, taking off from 27L is a straight shot out from the main terminal ramp(after crossing 27R). Sending them up to the end of 27R would take longer, and add more taxi congestion. It also requires crossing 17-35 and jamming up that traffic.

The situation is reversed when winds favor 9. Take offs are a quick and easy taxi to 9L. Landings come in on 9R and make a relatively quick taxi over to the terminal after crossing 9L.

With your suggestion, the number of planes needing to cross 27R/9L would increase proportionately, which may negate any time savings.

The congestion problem lies more in the airport terminal design. Only one plane in and out of the alleyways at a time, and not enough gates when they start scheduling like the summer of 2000/2001 again. Nothing is more irksum than landing 30 minute early from a long red-eye, only to be told there's no gate available. Fix the terminal problem at PHL and the jam ups will decrease.

I've seen the proposals to relocate runways to allow parallel ops. But that's a 10 year pipe dream, at best.
 
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PHL,

While it is true that the number of 9L/27R crossings would rise, the situation wouldn't be as bad there as you suggest. During that 25% gap when the departing aircraft is getting into position, two aircraft can cross the runway (one that just landed on 9R/27L, the other that is about to take off from 9R/27L).

While it is true that the taxi times would be longer, I am absolutely certain that it wouldn't take a half-hour, which is how long the plane I was on today had to wait in the queue to take off. It had nothing to do with jamups in the alleys. There were 15 planes ahead of us in the queue.

Sure, my proposal isn't perfect, but you don't have to run that pattern all the time; just during peak hours. And if the wait-for-a-gate issue is significant, then keep the same landing rate, but bump the departure rate by 50%. It'd be substantially better than it is right now.
 
Why can't landings be made on 27L to taxi to the ramp via taxiway Y or Z, never having to cross 27R. Departing aircraft could use 27L Via K without impedeing arrivals, unless of there is a noise problem with straight out departures off 27L. Same thing with 9R departuresand 9L arrivals. Less waiting to cross runways, less congestion near the terminal, except for the usual "aircraft in the alleyway:" thing that goes on there. Rolling the hub should help that. But wait, what am I thinking? If U wants to slow up WN, just DOUBLE the existing flights out of PHL and it will be gridlock all day long!
 
problem with trying to slow swa up is is that they i dont think have the acars system so they can let ops know that they were out on time and off say within 20 or so minutes i could be wrong.
 
Very often there is an oil tanker moored off the departure end of 35, which would make it pretty dicey to get some big metal in on 17 at a decent angle.

Also, anybody else hear that SW is already pressuring DL and NW to be moved to other terminals. Don't know where either would go. There is no room for DL in A West. There might be room for NW (who only uses 3 gates) during the day, but it could get dicey during the European bank. They are currently renovating the E10 and E12 jetways, and the E8 jetway has been removed.

I saw a Frontier plane at A West Friday night, apparently on a proving run. I expect them to go there, D14 or one of the F gates that AirTran used.
 
I saw a A319 land on 17 last week, 4/1 or 4/2. I've even seen Buses land on 26, but both I witnessed were accidental (one was Northwest). Anyway I've found the best way to deal with the PHL traffic congestion problems is to bid around PHL. It's been working fairly well for me.
 
I think the reason they only use one of the 27's for takeoffs is because of the limited departure corridors not the limited space on the ground. The airspace around PHL is very congested and they have to have minimum separation over each of the 4 departure fixes. Having two aircraft take off at the same time and both going over PTW or Ditch and ATC needing 10 or 15 miles spacing would be a total disaster. They are landing both 27 L/R during the inbound pushes and they have asked the RJ operators to use 17/35 when asked (and we are). I have actually seen things get much better in PHL the last 6 months or so (with airport operations, now the ramp and gate is another monster altogether.) That said, the summer is just around the corner and when a T-storm decides to sit over one of these 4 departure fixes all bets are off. -Cape
 

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