Pension Issue

UnitedChicago

Veteran
Aug 27, 2002
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This is going to be sticky. Anyone know what the status of the proposed legislation before congress?

Because of the sensitivity of this issue - I ask for UA Employees and Customers only.


(Reuters) — United Airlines, seeking ways to ease a huge pension burden before emerging from bankruptcy, faces several unpleasant options, including, as a last resort, terminating the plans, according to industry analysts and sources familiar with the issue.

In a recent regulatory filing, United said $4.2 billion in cash contributions to pensions were required over five years. Its underfunded liability, an accounting figure, is estimated at more than that, by some figures in the $6 billion to $7 billion range. That is a staggering sum for any company but especially one trying to get back on profitable footing.

United, the world's second largest airline and a unit of UAL Corp., filed the largest ever aviation bankruptcy in December 2002.
``The challenge with exit financing is the amount of cash flow to pension plans, especially in the early years of the business plan,'' Chief Financial Officer Jake Brace said in an interview.

Bill Warlick, senior airline analyst at Fitch Ratings, said United might try a variety of options used by other companies.

One is to ask the Internal Revenue Service for waivers on contributions for a one-year period, he said. Another is to continue to press for legislation that changes pension funding rules. A third is to ask unions to reopen pension discussions and perhaps change formulas that determine contributions. Finally, United may simply ask the bankruptcy court to terminate the plans.

Given the complexity of the issue, Warlick said it was likely some combination might ultimately be used. ``I don't think any of them would be seen as a sure thing.''

FRONT-LOADING PAYMENTS

Brace said one of the main issues with United's pensions revolves around what are known as deficit reduction contributions — a type of penalty that must be paid when the plans fall below a certain level of funding.

United is pushing Congress for changes to pension funding laws, particularly regarding the deficit reduction contributions, which have the effect of front-loading the financial burden.

Pension problems — one of several lingering issues in the complicated bankruptcy — exist despite sacrifices already made by employees in recent wage concession agreements.

The Air Line Pilots Association, for example, agreed to changes in the pension formula and to cap years of eligible service. Pilots said their changes result in savings of $1.5 billion over the term of the union contract.

``We already gave blood at that bank,'' said Paul Whiteford, head of the ALPA branch at United, when asked if the pilots would consider additional concessions.

BANKRUPTCY CODE PROVISION

Another option no one wants to see evolve — but which is usable as a last resort — is a return to section 1113 of the bankruptcy code to allow United to reject its union contracts.

Unlike smaller rival US Airways Corp., which had the bulk of its liability in its pilots' plan and eventually terminated it, United has four pension plans: one for pilots; one for flight attendants; one for union ground employees; and one for management and salaried workers plus public contact workers like airport and reservation staff. The degree each is under-funded is somewhat evenly spread out, according to a source familiar with the plans.

But Brace agreed that no one solution was likely, as happened in US Airways. ``It's not to be any single answer, it's going to be some of this, some of that.''
 
the pension will be terminated unless congress passes hr. 2719. UAL doesn't have a choice. It will be interesting to see how ALPA plays this out.

By the way.............You can not moderate who posts on this board. Everyone has a right to post anything and anywhere they want.

fatburger
 
fatburger said:
By the way.............You can not moderate who posts on this board. Everyone has a right to post anything and anywhere they want.

fatburger
Actually you're wrong. The administrators of this web site can make any rules they want. It has already been decided that if a person opening a thread on this site requests that only UA employees and customers post responses, that request will be honored.
 
They can?

They have the employment status of each member? Also, they can tell if a member has used UAL or any other airline - as a customer?

[Actually you're wrong. The administrators of this web site can make any rules they want. It has already been decided that if a person opening a thread on this site requests that only UA employees and customers post responses, that request will be honored]
 
UnitedChicago,

I'm not sure how this will play out in congress. It will probably be a close vote either way. I do know that UA has plans for several different outcomes.

Keep in mind that at USAir, only the pilot's pension was terminated. I don't think that waving a wand and eliminating all the pensions in one stroke will happen.

Also, I recently heard that the $7 Billion number is overstated. Those underfunding numbers are projected into the future, and with the economy in a slow recovery, it changes the projections.

Each employee groups pension is funded (or underfunded) to a different amount. I don't have the exact numbers, but I believe the pilot's pension was about $3.5 Billion under before our new contract. Since then, the changes made have reduced that to around $1.5 - $1.8 Billion. It will be up to every group to come up with potential solutions to their individual pension shortfall and present it to the company. On that front I know that ALPA has made significant progress and has a plan in place.

Changes may or may not be on the horizon, but IMO I don't think the pension will be arbitrarily terminated.
 
http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2003/08/07/...rtr1052612.html


REUTERS
United putting off pensions to pay bonds-US senator

This might have been reported here before, but I agree with the senator.
Pensions before pavement.

Pensions were negotiated and part of our wage package long ago. It should have been taken care of and not a problem today. If Ual chooses to underfund our programs, they should be responsible for making up the difference.

During the good years not so long ago, they squandered our money and now want to give it to the govt. to handle.
Not only did this management not take care of the stock holders, they did not take care of the contracts they agreed to.
A double whammy against us. I think it's criminal the way they operate. Of course we all know it, and they know it, and the people who could stop the raping of public companies know it. They must sit on the boards of these companies. :down:

Maybe they operate within the law, but not within a moral and ethical arena.

Now I feel better..

Can anyone explain how pension funding works and when companies become underfunded? If they bought an annuity for me, was it paid for up front or are they still making installments on it? Have they been paying all along on pensions during BK?
I think we need to know exactly how Ual pays our pension fund.
 
Traveler said:
They can?
Well, all I can tell you is what they have been doing. It's already been done recently. You could always contact the moderator and ask for yourself.
 
Traveler said:
They can?

They have the employment status of each member? Also, they can tell if a member has used UAL or any other airline - as a customer?

[Actually you're wrong. The administrators of this web site can make any rules they want. It has already been decided that if a person opening a thread on this site requests that only UA employees and customers post responses, that request will be honored]
In practice, it's just a clever way of saying "Chip Munn may not post to this thread." While the owners of this site can do whatever they want, I find such childish behavior appalling.
 
FWAAA said:
Traveler said:
They can?

They have the employment status of each member? Also, they can tell if a member has used UAL or any other airline - as a customer?

[Actually you're wrong. The administrators of this web site can make any rules they want. It has already been decided that if a person opening a thread on this site requests that only UA employees and customers post responses, that request will be honored]
In practice, it's just a clever way of saying "Chip Munn may not post to this thread." While the owners of this site can do whatever they want, I find such childish behavior appalling.
Agreed. While I understand the sentiment, I've always found the best way to handle an annoyance is to ignore it. If they didn't respond to the bait and ignored him, he'd leave anyway because I think it's attention and recognition he craves.

Attempting to discriminate as to who may reply to a thread is silly.

BTW- Only beautiful, available females may respond to MY post. ;)
 
The ATSB required Usair to show a return of 7%( a large amount in this industry, so I was told). Dropping the funding of the pilots pension was the only way they could show this much return in their best case scenerio( again so I was told).

I hope Tilton can find funding outside of ATSB or I fear for United pensions as well!!

Best of luck in the current quarter, with rising revenues they might be able to paint a much better picture than the enviroment Usair was under.

Saving at least your pension will greately boost moral in the first months out of ch11!!
 
I have debated this with 767jetz before. We have really 2 options unless something happens drastically with congress. (1) United is relieved of it's pension obligations by turning them over to the PGBC, and MAYBE those still working will stay so. (2) United finds private exit financing that will require another 30% company downsizing. Which may occur regardless of either scenario. Don't mean to be so doom and gloom but we really have a tough road ahead as I see it. Just my 2 cents
 
The Ronin said:
I have debated this with 767jetz before. We have really 2 options unless something happens drastically with congress. (1) United is relieved of it's pension obligations by turning them over to the PGBC, and MAYBE those still working will stay so. (2) United finds private exit financing that will require another 30% company downsizing. Which may occur regardless of either scenario. Don't mean to be so doom and gloom but we really have a tough road ahead as I see it. Just my 2 cents
I agree with The Ronin.

In the next year or so, UA will undergo more serious shrinking.

And as to the pensions... most if not all (especially the pilots' plan)... well, let's just say I hope my colleagues have contemplated an "alternate scenario" for their retirements and are not counting on a UAL pension being there for them.
 
anybody who contemplates saving for their own retirement should have begun at least 20 yes prior th mandatory retirememt! no references just my personal best guess.

I know their is some bad feelings between myself and some UAL types because of osts I have made in the past. Please don't write me off because of that on this subject! No-thing, nothing, aint ever seen it that was worthas much as your pension!!

I sit here daily debateing what is the plan for the family and everything comes after feeding momma in retirement!! No more toys no more vacations no more political contributions etc...

Please here me when I say " You don"t want to go there girlfriend!!" Protect yourself, protect your family. protect your pension!!


Best of luck to the UAL employees!!
 
We took another 5% just to save the duty rigs, which were promptly gotten rid of later!! Could we have saved the pension, I don't know, but in hindsight it means a lot more than I thought it did!!

Try to save your pension, if you can then you have something worth working for!!

Usair is nothing but a paycheck now!! No future, no past worth rembering!! Don't let UAL fall into this abyss as well!!


With all best regards, Bigbusdrvr
 

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