Then explain how AA acft can divert to ABI, GGG, MAF, etc, and get fueled. Nevermind the usual 10+ that OKC, TUL, SAT, and AUS get during a full blown wx session. You saying they all go to a gate to get refueled?
PAX stuck on jet 8 hrs no food, overflowing toilets
- Thread starter Wretched Wrench
- Start date
Then explain how AA acft can divert to ABI, GGG, MAF, etc, and get fueled. Nevermind the usual 10+ that OKC, TUL, SAT, and AUS get during a full blown wx session. You saying they all go to a gate to get refueled?
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,940
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Sorry, Boomer, but I owned jetbridge procedures and the TSM at one point, and worked directly with the FAA on this one. A jetbridge is absolutely not required, and is it not required to be done at a gate:
There is also an exception in writing for situations where airstairs aren't available (i.e. a widebody diverts to an offline station), fueling can be done provided all door slides are armed and CFR are notified in advance.
Code:
PSM ---------------------- JETBRIDGE --------------------------
FUELING WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD TGLCFM
---------------------------------------------------------------
FUELING WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD
---------------------------------
WHEN FUELING WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD AN
AIRCRAFT, THE JETBRIDGE OR PASSENGER LOADING
STAIRS MUST BE POSITIONED AT A FORWARD ENTRY DOOR
OF THE AIRCRAFT AND THE DOOR MUST REMAIN OPEN.
--------------------------------------------------
NOTE
ON THE MD80, THE AFT STAIRS MAY BE USED IN LIEU
OF A JETBRIDGE OR PASSENGER LOADING STAIRS.
THIS PROCEDURE APPLIES FOR ANY FUELING ACTIVITY
/TOPPING OFF, REMOVING, ETC./ INVOLVED WITH THE
AIRCRAFT WHILE PASSENGERS ARE ON BOARD.There is also an exception in writing for situations where airstairs aren't available (i.e. a widebody diverts to an offline station), fueling can be done provided all door slides are armed and CFR are notified in advance.
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would love to see that "High Wire" act done, on a DC-10/777 !
NH/BB's
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Try doing it from a 747... Between 1985 and the time they finished the new international terminal at ORD in 1992 or 1993 (don't recall the exact year), all international arrivals used stairs and busses from a hardstand.
Getting a paramedic stretcher off the widebody was no more difficult than it was to get wheelchair passengers off the aircraft. If the City lift truck wasn't available, we did a two man carry...
Its to bad management could care less about the people on board that Aircraft.
They are overworked and underpaid. If AA could give them some incentive pay to go the extra step this sort of thing would never happen.
Fault AA management. They should not divert so many aircraft into a podunk airport like Austin. I guess the millions of dollars of bonus pay don't buy good management.
Let's get a little perspective here from an operational standpoint. While I don't agree with keeping the customers out off a gate for long periods, you need to see what happens in these kinds of situations.
As a former Dispatcher, I've been working on hand have seen days when weather blocks routes into your hub airport or shuts down a major airport. It's an absolutely, frustrating nightmare. For lack of a better way at the time, we'd keep a whiteboard list with which airports were available and how many our station personnel could take (whomever wasn't working the hub or swampped would normally take care of this). Once we diverted flights to that station and it was full, we'd stop sending them there, if at all possible. Now you have to imagine that all the other airlines are doing simliar operations with their planes.
In an airport like AUS or SAT, where there isn't really a dominant airline, it's difficult for a station person for your airline to see what the big picture is at the airport as a whole until it's too late; aircrat are left without gates and the ground holds/delays are at a maximum.
Knowing ATC and the weather in Dallas and in central TX that particular day (I live in the DFW area), there were multiple ATC ground stops and ground delays going off and on all day. There may not have been an open route between AUS and DFW for quite a while. The Crew was probably told numerous times that they had a slot time, but then it got cancelled for new stoms that developed or moved in/near both airports. It happens. The fuelers were probably buried with refueling all the diverted a/c and all the a/c that were already on the ground for regular operations. Airstairs, other than on the aircraft itself, may or may not be available at all stations.
Again, I don't agree with letting these people stay on the plane for as long as they did. Good customer service in many departments of the airline would have/should have found a way to make the "imprisonment" a little more bearable. There were things that Dispatch, Maintenance, Customer Service or even the Crews could have probably done, depending on the legalities and the information each had at the time. Any one of these teams/departments could've made a small difference. Finger pointing and blaming "management" (who is completely out of the operation on a day-to-day routine) isn't going to make anything better.
On days like this, everyone should make an effort to do what they can and COMMUNICATE what's happening.
Management's job is to get involved after the fact in customer care and in trying to find a way to better manage recovery efforts when a hub goes sour for weather.
Vent over.
As a former Dispatcher, I've been working on hand have seen days when weather blocks routes into your hub airport or shuts down a major airport. It's an absolutely, frustrating nightmare. For lack of a better way at the time, we'd keep a whiteboard list with which airports were available and how many our station personnel could take (whomever wasn't working the hub or swampped would normally take care of this). Once we diverted flights to that station and it was full, we'd stop sending them there, if at all possible. Now you have to imagine that all the other airlines are doing simliar operations with their planes.
In an airport like AUS or SAT, where there isn't really a dominant airline, it's difficult for a station person for your airline to see what the big picture is at the airport as a whole until it's too late; aircrat are left without gates and the ground holds/delays are at a maximum.
Knowing ATC and the weather in Dallas and in central TX that particular day (I live in the DFW area), there were multiple ATC ground stops and ground delays going off and on all day. There may not have been an open route between AUS and DFW for quite a while. The Crew was probably told numerous times that they had a slot time, but then it got cancelled for new stoms that developed or moved in/near both airports. It happens. The fuelers were probably buried with refueling all the diverted a/c and all the a/c that were already on the ground for regular operations. Airstairs, other than on the aircraft itself, may or may not be available at all stations.
Again, I don't agree with letting these people stay on the plane for as long as they did. Good customer service in many departments of the airline would have/should have found a way to make the "imprisonment" a little more bearable. There were things that Dispatch, Maintenance, Customer Service or even the Crews could have probably done, depending on the legalities and the information each had at the time. Any one of these teams/departments could've made a small difference. Finger pointing and blaming "management" (who is completely out of the operation on a day-to-day routine) isn't going to make anything better.
On days like this, everyone should make an effort to do what they can and COMMUNICATE what's happening.
Management's job is to get involved after the fact in customer care and in trying to find a way to better manage recovery efforts when a hub goes sour for weather.
Vent over.
You obviously never worked at AA. Every part of the day-to-day operAAtion is controlled by manAAgement here. I could only wish they operated this place the way you described, it would solve most of the problems.
Considering the options, Austin is not a podunk airport. Its a former air force base for b-52s. They have plenty of ground and more AA flights than anywhere in the southwest other than DFW. They also have empty gates.
You obviously never worked at AA. Every part of the day-to-day operAAtion is controlled by manAAgement here. I could only wish they operated this place the way you described, it would solve most of the problems.
Management should absolutely be involved in this type of situation. The AUS GM should have been on sit, directing the situation and getting it fixed. They are paid to perform in exactly these types of situations.
You obviously never worked at AA. Every part of the day-to-day operAAtion is controlled by manAAgement here. I could only wish they operated this place the way you described, it would solve most of the problems.
LOL! Actually I was TWA, but left shortly after the merger announcement. I'd worked for AA in the past (in Crandall's regime, but not in Dispatch) and knew what was possibly going to come.
No offense to the AA folks,I hope. There are some really good ones out there among some really sour people who bring everyone down. You guys are turning things around, though, but you just have to work together. Each and every person has a chance to make a small difference, really. It does work.
That was a different AAirline, I can barely remember those Crandall days.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,940
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I'm surprised you pro-AMFA bunnies aren't hopping all over this. The decision on where to divert lies with the captain and the dispatcher, who is a TWU represented employee.
So it's not managements' fault -- it's the TWU's fault.
As for AUS being a "podunk airport"... You're obviously a little ignorant of the fact that AUS has somewhere between 1.5M and 2.0M residents in the immediate metro area, depending on where you separate AUS and SAT (which are slowly growing together into a single metro area).
OP
Wretched Wrench
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- Apr 21, 2003
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- #42
I'm surprised you pro-AMFA bunnies aren't hopping all over this. The decision on where to divert lies with the captain and the dispatcher, who is a TWU represented employee.
So it's not managements' fault -- it's the TWU's fault.
FM, you are letting your mind wander too much.
AA717driver
Member
- Oct 17, 2003
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It's my understanding that the flight in AUS had an open gate available but the AAgents wouldn't work it. They finally quit answering the radio or the phone in ops. TC
OP
Wretched Wrench
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- Apr 21, 2003
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Today's Wall Street Journal has an article about flight 1348 on the front page.
I don't know if this link works, but http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1168043689...=hps_us_pageone
excerpts:
After more than eight hours on the ground, and 12 hours after the plane had left San Francisco, the captain told passengers he was going to an empty gate, even though he didn't have permission.
The carrier says it is studying whether it should adopt a harder time limit on how long planes can sit and wait.
American's Mr. Hotard says the airline is truly sorry for the mess. He says one reason the airline may not have contacted customers to apologize is that its Fort Worth headquarters, where customer-service specialists work, was closed for four days over New Year's.
I don't know if this link works, but http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1168043689...=hps_us_pageone
excerpts:
After more than eight hours on the ground, and 12 hours after the plane had left San Francisco, the captain told passengers he was going to an empty gate, even though he didn't have permission.
The carrier says it is studying whether it should adopt a harder time limit on how long planes can sit and wait.
American's Mr. Hotard says the airline is truly sorry for the mess. He says one reason the airline may not have contacted customers to apologize is that its Fort Worth headquarters, where customer-service specialists work, was closed for four days over New Year's.
Absolutely F-ing brilliant.
Some VP should be fired yesterday for this incompetence.
