Parker labels DCA a "hub", not "focus city"

[jimntx]

Well, if you will remember when Bob Crandall was heading up AA, his long-term vision was that AA mainline would do the International flying, and American Eagle would do the domestic flying. It was the AA pilots holding on to their Scope clause which restricted the number of seats that AE a/c could have that thwarted that plan.

It's not just US Airways that is moving more and more flying to its "Express" unit(s). AA is doing it; United is doing it; and, I imagine Delta is doing it also. Not because of lack of demand for seats; it's because express pilots and flight attendants are a lot less expensive that their mainline counterparts. The major cost of any flight from Point A to Point B is still the crew. Flying is going from mainline to regional (whatever that means in this day and age...AE has a nonstop from XNA to LAX!) Maintenance and reservations are being outsourced overseas. If the airline can find someone to do it cheaper, they go with that provider. Whether that provider can do it better or even as good is not an issue to management.

 

[Phoenix]

Well, if you will remember when Bob Crandall was heading up AA, his long-term vision was that AA mainline would do the International flying, and American Eagle would do the domestic flying. It was the AA pilots holding on to their Scope clause which restricted the number of seats that AE a/c could have that thwarted that plan.

It's not just US Airways that is moving more and more flying to its "Express" unit(s). AA is doing it; United is doing it; and, I imagine Delta is doing it also. Not because of lack of demand for seats; it's because express pilots and flight attendants are a lot less expensive that their mainline counterparts. The major cost of any flight from Point A to Point B is still the crew. Flying is going from mainline to regional (whatever that means in this day and age...AE has a nonstop from XNA to LAX!) Maintenance and reservations are being outsourced overseas. If the airline can find someone to do it cheaper, they go with that provider. Whether that provider can do it better or even as good is not an issue to management.

Major cost is crew?

Not sure that is really true on a % basis.. But certainly employee wages are the most negotiable, ie subject to reductions. For example, there isn't much room for negotiating lower fuel prices for fuel that goes in the tank of an RJ compared to fuel into a AB330, but all the employees wages can and have been reduced, as a percentage and as adjusted for inflation, for decades.

 

[jimntx]

When you include not only the hourly wages of the crew, but also the cost of the benefits, I would say that yes, the crew is more expensive than the fuel. Not necessarily by much right now, but remember that depending on the market if demand drops and/or supply increases, the cost of the fuel drops. The union contracts say that the crew is paid the same regardless.

 

[Phoenix]

Fuel is by far the highest cost.

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424052702303296604577450581396602106?mg=reno64-wsj

But employee costs are by far the most adjustable.

 

[jimntx]

Ok, if you want to be the winner. You win. Happy? It was one sentence out of several that was addressed to the management move to have everything including the flying done as cheaply as possible. Pick nits all you want. I'm tired of discussing it.

 

[Onestep2flt]

Air Whiskey runs DCA-MCI which is 947sm and they go from PHL-DCA on the same CRJ200 which is 1047sm

Yes, kind of makes the point. What is express flying? Your example here is that I can buy a roundtrip ticket on US Airways and never fly on US Airways. I think a 947 mile journey in a CRJ200 would be like riding the Tokyo subway at rush hour. For those that have never experienced it, they actually have paid staff that push as many people onto a subway car as possible and still shut the doors! You just pray that everyone had a shower and brushed their teeth! It is that comfortable! Kind of fun the first time you do it, but the fun wears off quick. I think a CRJ is fine for all of about 30 minutes then the fun meter is pegged.

Well, if you will remember when Bob Crandall was heading up AA, his long-term vision was that AA mainline would do the International flying, and American Eagle would do the domestic flying. It was the AA pilots holding on to their Scope clause which restricted the number of seats that AE a/c could have that thwarted that plan.

It's not just US Airways that is moving more and more flying to its "Express" unit(s). AA is doing it; United is doing it; and, I imagine Delta is doing it also. Not because of lack of demand for seats; it's because express pilots and flight attendants are a lot less expensive that their mainline counterparts. The major cost of any flight from Point A to Point B is still the crew. Flying is going from mainline to regional (whatever that means in this day and age...AE has a nonstop from XNA to LAX!) Maintenance and reservations are being outsourced overseas. If the airline can find someone to do it cheaper, they go with that provider. Whether that provider can do it better or even as good is not an issue to management.

Interesting, I really had no idea that was their plan. Funny thing, I always thought that this was the one thing that American did right over all the other airlines. You pretty much knew what the service was going to be like because it was more tightly controlled by American. Interesting that they are now doing what every other airline has done. Outsourcing the one thing that made American stand out from the rest of the legacy carriers. Not saying this is any better than giving 75% of the flying to Republic but at least they utilized their wholly owned carrier.

These arguments about employee costs are always interesting. While most carriers are doing everything they can to nickel and dime everyone, Southwest has kept to their tried and true methods. Just provide consistent service from point A to Point B while charging an amount that makes them a profit. I know they are slowly going down an uncertain road of change with the Airtran merger and bigger planes such as the 737-800's. They still seem to get it right in the end though. The employee costs are probably some of the highest in the industry, but yet they still seem to be doing O.K.

 

[FWAAA]

Now, even worse is that the new scope indicates that 75% of domestic flying can be done on "Regional jets" as long as they do not exceed 76 seats. Of course there are the grandfathered 88 seat planes as well.

That's not the scope limit. Under the MOU, the number of commuter-operated outsourced planes will be limited to 75% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count. For example, if new AA flies 800 narrowbody mainline planes, then the total outsourced fleet cannot exceed 600. Further limits restrict the number of large RJs (the 66-76 seat 2-class plus the other large grandfathered RJs that US currently flies.

Interesting, I really had no idea that was their plan. Funny thing, I always thought that this was the one thing that American did right over all the other airlines. You pretty much knew what the service was going to be like because it was more tightly controlled by American. Interesting that they are now doing what every other airline has done. Outsourcing the one thing that made American stand out from the rest of the legacy carriers. Not saying this is any better than giving 75% of the flying to Republic but at least they utilized their wholly owned carrier.

Crandall never told anyone that his plan was to outsource nearly all domestic flying to Eagle. It's really an internet urban legend spread by New Hampshire Black Bears and others. Even if that was his plan, the pilots would have never gone along with that kind of outsourcing.

 

[dash8roa]

I think the number of seats on Express will increase, an likewise Express ASMs, but I don't think that mainline flights will increase substantially.

Some US employees have openly wondered what happens to the very small cities if/when the Dash8s are retired, and apparently that fleet has been shrinking. Unless those planes are replaced, that will decrease the number of Express departures over time. On the flip side, as AA takes delivery of perhaps 200 to 300 76-seaters over several years, some of those planes may end up on routes currently flown by MD-80s (as well as routes flown by 50-seat ERJs and CRJs), so that would help to increase the number of Express departures. The good news is that there are some overlapping routes where AA and US each fly several 50-76 seaters and perhaps those can be replaced by several A319s or 738s.

Piedmont years ago before the merger with Allegheny had more aircraft in its fleet than the combined airline has today. Two frames are coming up on cycle limits this year and after many years of looking for used dash's, none are coming on line. Years ago ATR made a demo call to SBY and nothing ever became of that. When the dashes go, so will HHH which has a 4300 foot runway.
It may be their plan to drop small cities but HHH generates about 60,000 boardings per year. Turbo props may be selling well in Europe and other parts of the world, but in this country, no large orders and future seems to be large RJ's with lower daily frequency's.

 

[gabby]

" I think a CRJ is fine for all of about 30 minutes then the fun meter is pegged."

Middle seat on a 737 is by far the worst.

 

[john john]

Further limits restrict the number of large RJs (the 66-76 seat 2-class plus the other large grandfathered RJs that US currently flies.

do tell

 

[Onestep2flt]

That's not the scope limit. Under the MOU, the number of commuter-operated outsourced planes will be limited to 75% of the mainline narrowbody fleet count. For example, if new AA flies 800 narrowbody mainline planes, then the total outsourced fleet cannot exceed 600. Further limits restrict the number of large RJs (the 66-76 seat 2-class plus the other large grandfathered RJs that US currently flies.

Thanks for correcting me on the actual launguage. I will admit my info came third party and my interpretation seems to miss on the words "fleet count". This sounds slightly less onorous until you look at the example you give. That 600 aircraft is still a huge amount of flying that the new American is potentially not doing themselves. I know you just threw that out there. However, given the large orders of aircraft that both airlines have this could very well be a reality. I am still of the belief that it would have been wise to define what exactly express, regional, communter or whatever other term management calls it is. We have already gone through several examples that are out of the scope of what the traditional role of this flying has been. Also, this is still a slap in the face to Eagle, Piedmont and PSA. They are being put to the curb as we speak. Not trying to bring too much emotion to the argument, but just want to emphasize that if they wanted to this work could be done inhouse at a profit. That is why I brought up Southwest before.

Crandall never told anyone that his plan was to outsource nearly all domestic flying to Eagle. It's really an internet urban legend spread by New Hampshire Black Bears and others. Even if that was his plan, the pilots would have never gone along with that kind of outsourcing.

While you seem to be correct about Eagle doing it all there is some legitimacy to this notion. In an article on The Street dated today it states that the original plan that Tom Horton envisioned was to code share with Jetblue and that the original contract proposal with APA wanted to enable code-shares of up to 50% of domestic seat miles. Apparently, your MOU trims that to 4%. I don't know how express flying fits in here. Is it part of the code-share miles? Is this type of flying seperate? If seperate that may be where you rumors came from. I really don't know so I am not sugessting anything here. Just pointing out how this may have started.

" I think a CRJ is fine for all of about 30 minutes then the fun meter is pegged."

Middle seat on a 737 is by far the worst.

I can't argue with you there. However, I did not include them since we were talking about whether the flying the CRJ does is really "Express" flying or not.

Also, the disconfort on the 737 is a product of seat choice and arrangement which can be changed by your management. US Airways stated they were being replaced by A321's so the argument can be made that they are fixing it. Of course we don't want to discuss the fact that they crammed more seats on those things too! Will be interesting to see what is in store for all the American 737's. I just know that for me the 737 is not as bad as the CRJ. Southwest still has 737-300's and the seating even in the middle is much better than Airways.

 

[FWAAA]

do tell

Here's a link to the USAPA explanation of the MOU:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/01/USAPA-Flight-Plan-to-a-Merger-MOU-explainer-January-2013.pdf

Scope limits are summarized on page 12 out of 20 of the .pdf file. The number of large RJs is limited to 30% of the narrowbody fleet in 2014, 35% in 2015 and 40% in 2016 and beyond. The percentage of large RJs increases to permit legacy AA to add the anticipated 200 to 300 large RJs over the next several years, many of which will of course replace 44 seaters and 50 seaters.

Thanks for correcting me on the actual launguage. I will admit my info came third party and my interpretation seems to miss on the words "fleet count". This sounds slightly less onorous until you look at the example you give. That 600 aircraft is still a huge amount of flying that the new American is potentially not doing themselves.

True, but Eagle currently flies more than 200 RJs and US currently flies 285 RJs and Dash8s. The current total is more than 500. Most of that flying is already being outsourced. AA filed for bankruptcy in part to force its pilots to come to grips with the fact that UA, DL and US all flew more large RJs than the 47 that the old AA pilot contract permitted, and so the number of large RJs at AA is going to increase, merger or no merger, as AA has more than 600 mainline planes and just 47 2-class RJs flying at Eagle. That ratio is incredibly low compared to every other legacy airline and competing with UA and DL will require more large 2-class RJs at LGA, ORD, MIA, DFW and LAX.

High-revenue premium passengers are not going to connect onto crappy little 50 seat single class CRJs if the competition offers a 2-class 76 seater. Plus, there are some shorter routes where 50-seaters are just too small yet 120 seat A319s (arriving at AA in a couple of months) are just too large. Those routes will get 2-class 76 seaters.

I know you just threw that out there. However, given the large orders of aircraft that both airlines have this could very well be a reality. I am still of the belief that it would have been wise to define what exactly express, regional, communter or whatever other term management calls it is. We have already gone through several examples that are out of the scope of what the traditional role of this flying has been. Also, this is still a slap in the face to Eagle, Piedmont and PSA. They are being put to the curb as we speak. Not trying to bring too much emotion to the argument, but just want to emphasize that if they wanted to this work could be done inhouse at a profit. That is why I brought up Southwest before.

AA's mainline pilots offered to do the 76-seat flying inhouse at a B-scale (similar to Eagle pilot wages), but the FAs and other employees were never willing to go along with it, and I don't blame pilots for being unwilling to shoulder all the sacrifice. In fact, before AA filed for Ch 11, AA made the pilots an offer that included all new RJs with more than 50 seats would be flown at mainline (AA was hoping to get the FAs to follow along).

While you may be longing for a definition of express, the pilots have that one covered. Under the APA pilot contract, ALL Flying belongs to the APA mainline pilots unless carved out as an exception, and the exceptions are very clearly defined.

While you seem to be correct about Eagle doing it all there is some legitimacy to this notion. In an article on The Street dated today it states that the original plan that Tom Horton envisioned was to code share with Jetblue and that the original contract proposal with APA wanted to enable code-shares of up to 50% of domestic seat miles. Apparently, your MOU trims that to 4%. I don't know how express flying fits in here. Is it part of the code-share miles? Is this type of flying seperate? If seperate that may be where you rumors came from. I really don't know so I am not sugessting anything here. Just pointing out how this may have started.

The 4% limit was from the earlier Parker agreement with the APA - the MOU sets the codeshare limit at 15% (according to the article - keep reading down another sentence or two). Horton's plan was to be able to codeshare with B6 in NYC and BOS plus he wanted the option of codesharing with US in BOS, NYC and WAS.

Right now, US has a massive domestic codeshare with UA in a reciprocal codeshare. I don't know what the percentages are, but just skimming thru the US Airways .pdf timetable shows lots and lots of US codeshares on UA metal.

Express is not part of the 15% codeshare limit. New AA will probably codeshare with B6 in NYC and will continue to expand the domestic codeshare with Alaska on the west coast, just like DL is doing.

I don't get worked up over the number of large RJs or the size of the express operation - as new AA will have more than 950 mainline planes (narrowbody plus widebody) when the merger occurs. Legacy AA ordered almost 500 Airbus and Boeing narrowbody planes for delivery between 2012 and 2022, plus has almost 500 options for more narrowbody Airbus and Boeings, so mainline flying isn't going away. Of course many of those are scheduled to replace the remaining MD-80s and many of the older 757s. Add to those numbers the remaining US legacy A321 orders that are still being delivered to replace the old 737s, and it's clear that new AA will fly more mainline planes than any other airline. And just like UA and DL, new AA will have lots of large RJs.

 

[john john]

I don't get worked up over the number of large RJs or the size of the express operation - as new AA will have more than 950 mainline planes (narrowbody plus widebody) when the merger occurs. Legacy AA ordered almost 500 Airbus and Boeing narrowbody planes for delivery between 2012 and 2022, plus has almost 500 options for more narrowbody Airbus and Boeings, so mainline flying isn't going away.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1996-11-07/business/1996312047_1_airbus-industrie-usair-aircraft
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19961107&slug=2358331

So why is Wolf placing billion-dollar orders for new planes?
"He's using this as a carrot to the work force," said Raymond Neidl, an analyst with the brokerage firm Furman Selz in New York. "He's saying, `Listen, we're going to do all of these great things if we can get competitive. We're doing our part by getting a cost-efficient fleet.' "

Yea heard it all before


USAir Group Inc. launched a major effort yesterday to improve its fleet and cut costs, announcing that it would purchase at least 120 medium-sized aircraft from Airbus Industrie.
The deal -- which includes conditions and options that could push it to 400 planes -- is the largest order ever for Airbus. It has a potential value of about $18 billion, but undisclosed discounts will push it lower.