Our Collective Reality

[usairways_vote_NO]

I recognize perception is reality, especially on internet message board forums with one-way communication; however, my point is about logic versus reality.

What you fail to realize is perceved reality may not have any basis in fact.

In your first post you said "I firmly believe it is better to have a job while looking for a new job and that it’s better to get laid off than to have the company shut its doors.We have been over the reasons why and most of our active readers understand these points so I will not repeat them here, but time is running short and there is just a couple of months left before things will likely become very interesting for labor."

But you couldn't resist in fact I bet you planned to introduce them again in a response to the posts you say you rarely ever read.

It is everyones contractual right and choice to face whatever they want to face so why do you continue tring to sway everyone to your way of thinking?

We all know the choice you had made. It is try to convince everyone to see everything in your way so you can save your own hide. Your frustation and continual posting of the same thing over and over is your way of trying to brainwash everyone.

Posting and debating is a two-way communication method unless of course you choose to just post and then not read responses (or read them and not debate), as you say you do. Actually it shows you for what you are. You think you know everything that everyone is below you that the people on this board are just pawns for your manipulation.

When or will you ever get it thu your head it won't work?

 

[tadjr]

When or will you ever get it thu your head it won't work?

Shouldnt this quote be

"When would NOW be a good time to get it through your head it wont work."

 

[mwereplanes]

Well said mwereplanes short and to the point and a collective reality. Can I borrow your quote for future use?

Of course NO. Nothing on here is copyrighted and it is all just opinion.

Which is why 320's attitude is condescending. Most can see through his charade of being "in the know", "with reason to believe", using "sources close to the process" and attempting to instill fear surrounded by "facts and logic". The members of ALPA no longer tolerate his foolishness and ignore his posts over there. That is why he is here. He has no credibility among his peers. None. My suggestion is to ignore his posts. Just as his fellow pilots have done.

ALPA has caved once again. Because most there think they can save the company and their jobs. Fact is, the only thing that will save our jobs is a management that leads. As long as Glass is still here I must assume Lakefield doesn't understand that. See my post regarding United management and how their pilots view it. It makes things crystal clear.

mr

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

I still remember when he was ripped to shreds on the yahoo board a few years ago.

 

[delldude]

Nobody likes the situation we are in and it plan and simply sucks for all of us. Every employee group faces outsourcing, reduced pay and benefits one way or another.

UsairwaysvoteNo posted an excellent summary of the bankruptcy process “Abrogating Contracts Q&Aâ€￾ (click here for topic) and Firstammendment posted a topic called “What Nextâ€￾ (click here for topic) discussing the grim reality we all face.

Both of these topics accurately portray the significant risk of entering bankruptcy with out a new agreement and that most people do not have a “Plan Bâ€￾ if US Airways fails again in the marketplace.

Separately, Spin Doc made a good point when he said, "US Airways cannot change the current airline economic environment and they are trying to do something to keep your sorry butt on the property with a paycheck every two weeks. Reduced pay and benefits versus NO pay or benefits."

Spin Doc's comments are true because we all know the reasons for revenue deterioration due to the LCC's, Internet booking, and Acela, not to mention the Iraqi War and SARS. Moreover, there are new cost problems associated with September 11, new security expenses, higher war risk insurance, and fuel prices.

In my opinion, each employee group should negotiate the best offer possible and then decide theirr fate on whether or not the agreement is acceptable or would would it be better to argue their case in front of the bankruptcy judge, provided the company files for a Chapter 11 reorganization or a Chapter 7 liquidation. We all know that if the company enters bankruptcy there is no guarantee the company can exit the filing, especially if DIP financing is required.

From ALPA's perspective, with the news the company has hired bankruptcy financial and legal advisors and the union preparing for the filing with Richard Seltzer, ALPA International's bankruptcy attorney, the union offered the company a pay rate cut larger than management suggested. The opening proposal included 12.5% paycut, those new pay scales frozen until Jan 2009, no snapback, and a 5 hour monthly pay cap increase from 85 to 90 hours.

I firmly believe it is better to have a job while looking for a new job and that it’s better to get laid off than to have the company shut its doors. We have been over the reasons why and most of our active readers understand these points so I will not repeat them here, but time is running short and there is just a couple of months left before things will likely become very interesting for labor.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

In my opinion, each employee group should negotiate the best offer possible and then decide theirr fate on whether or not the agreement is acceptable or would would it be better to argue their case in front of the bankruptcy judge

in regard to IAM personnel....i believe there is around 3900 mechanics on board at the moment and some 1000 +/- utility and also a number of ramp employees.
latest word is U wants ALLramp and utility.....also U wishes to send ALL HEAVIES out the door with the mechanic headcount whittled down to around 800 happy go lucky persons.
i can guarantee you beyond a shadow of ANY doubt a concessionary contract will be voted down no matter how many times you do it.

FULL PAY UNTIL THE LAST DAY

 

[funguy2]

USA320 responds: Mwereplanes, I agree with your comment above, but with all due respect I take exception with your "condescending pilot's input" comment. I recognize perception is reality, especially on internet message board forums with one-way communication; however, my point is about logic versus reality.

If a person does not want to participate in the new business plan than they can visit the judge and even if they lose their job, they can also lose severance pay, COBRA, pass privileges, JRJ (if available and desired), and recall rights.

It's their contractual right to face the judge as "The Turtle" suggested. However, I do believe they will be worse off if their union's bankruptcy attorney faces the judge and argues why they deserve pay and benefits higher than the profitable LCC's for a twice failed company, but I agree it's their choice.

The collective reality for certain workgroups, such as mechanics, customer service, and reservations folks, is that if they are going to be furloughed (in case of operation, but some employees replaced by outsourcing or technology) or unemployed (in case of company failure), it is to their benefit to work for as much W-2 wages to the last day, as unemployment is generally a percentage of W-2 pay.

Therefore, if these folks believe they will be out of work anyway, and clearly many do, then it is to their benefit to work for as high a wage possible until their termination or furlough. This is logical, it just does not support your "help me help you" argument.

Let's repeat that:

If I think I will be unemployed soon, then I should take as high a wage as possible in order to get the maximum from unemployment, and best prepare for the inevitable... Logical.

Cav, no I did not read the profile that you wrote on me and I read very few messages on this board. ... As far as understanding employee thoughts, I believe that anger and frustration have taken over for logic, which is too bad because some people are going to be hurt more for it because their anger is obscuring their ability to think clearly.

Well... I am probably just wasting my time replying, since you don't read replies. Seems like you might actually understand the other side of your arguments better if you posted less and read others posts more... After all... God gave you two ears (and eyes for that matter) and only one mouth... Seems to indicate you should listen (or read) twice as much as you say (or post).

As I noted above... These things are logical... However, you may have to read this to figure that out.

 

[Groucho]

In consideration of the parties on this praticular topic, I won't talk about subjective perception, objectivity or any of that stuff.

It seems reasonable that, barring a miracle, this management will enter chapter 11 early this fall. Those who have made some kind of agreement with the company will maybe have that agreement honored. Those groups who don't have an agreement may face the companies filing of a motion to abrogate the contract.

My question to the IAM members on this board is: In the event the company gets a contract abrogation, will you strike?

It's not ment to be flame bait, it's ment to find out how strongly people feel about this situaition.

"Those are my principals. If you don't like them I have others." Groucho

 

[tcher]

Just a little thought in regards to concessions. I work in res and was recently reading an article entitled "Stop Picking Workers' Pockets" in business magazine. There was in the article several references to airlines in particular USAirways. Basically it read like this. "If you think hourly rates of pay determine a company's competitive advantage,you're wrong. For many companies, (USAIRWAYS), THE DIFFICULT truth to acknowledge is that hourly pay rates have little to do with company success and that forced givebacks can often be a losing strategy. Are the successfule carriers- Alaska, Continental, JetBlue, and Southwest- somehow better at getting people to work for less per hour than the struggling majors like United etc? Not necessarily. According to a pilot-maintained website Airlinepilotpay.com the captain of a 737 or A320 with 10 yrs seniority makes an hourly rate of $194 at Alaska, $175 at Southwest and $155 at Continental-but only $143 at United and $149 at Us Airways and $154 at American." Southwest pays a higher rate that United or Usairways even though we are running scared as they entered Phl market. It further states there are two reason that companies obsession about hourly wage rates is misplaced. One-being successful depends less on price and costs than it does on innovation, product and service quality, and customer loyalty. Many of the low-cost airlines aren't just low in cost; they're higher in service. Recent customer satisfaction surveys show AA, UA and U well below Alaska, JetBlue and Southwest in service quality and reputation. Two- labors costs are a combination of two factors: how much an employee is paid per hour and what the worker accomplishes while on the clock. Wage give backs often reduce discretionary effort and the employee's willingness to enhance productivity. Instead of punishing hourly workers, companies ought to consider targeting senior executives, withholding not just raises but also retention packages and retirement benefits. Instead of blaming every strategiv error and poor performance on labor rates, look at the usual suspects quality and service-and focus on fixing these proven ingredients to success." End of quote and paraphrasing. I thought the article hit the nail on the head. As much as it pains me to admit it, my customer service has deteriorated to zilch. I simply want to get them off the phone. I do what the company requires of me, but that's it. A trully sad experience in my own humble, personal experience. Just for information I have been employee in res since 1986, so I am not a new comer. Tcher

 

[mweiss]

If I think I will be unemployed soon, then I should take as high a wage as possible in order to get the maximum from unemployment, and best prepare for the inevitable...

Which, of course, means that if the company wants to get potential furloughees' buyin, they must offer a severance of at least equal value to the reduction in unemployment insurance.

 

[mweiss]

tcher,

There's not anything I could disagree with there.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

My question to the IAM members on this board is: In the event the company gets a contract abrogation, will you strike?

A abrogation even if it happens is a ways off and there are way to many variables to say what will happen, such as what the company bestows upon the members and progress on talks after a abrogation. There are also other job actions besides strike to consider.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Or they could fall back on their real life experiences from the IAM USAir strike of 1992.

 

[Aryeh]

Just to want to add one more constituency to those already being discussed, i.e. the pilots, customer service, f/a, etc. Our pay scales do not adjust for the various costs of living across the system.
The last cuts already placed those of us living in such places as New York or the SF Bay area (the country's costliest) into poverty. With the proposed cuts, all of those working in some groups will be in that position, joining those already there. Now, what do you think these cuts will do to those living where the costs are highest and already at the poverty level?
Would be nice if we could "sacrifice" proportionally. A pilot's cut would still put food on the table. Some agents' cuts would have less food on the table and then there are those already with less food on their table who will have to just sell everything and camp out with the kids and all, right in the airport terminal. I guess it would eliminate the hassle of commuting to work!
Then again, I fear if we worked for free, it still wouldn't make a difference.

 

[Winglet]

Well since they want to put you in poverty, I would guess they don't care about you. You could have the power to flush their company into the dustbin of airline history. They just want you to go quietly and not make any fuss if you won't work for their scraps.

 

[hp_fa]

If ever there was a time for a CEO to get no more then 20x the pay of the lowest full time worker and the pay scales for management types to go down from there AND everyone get generous profit sharing, U is the poster child for such an endeavor. Unfortunately, U has squandered their goodwill with the workers and lacks leaders who would take such a gamble and actually try to make everyone money who was willing to take the gamble.