Old Wounds Cleaned and Ready for Class Action Lawsuit

[Workingman]

I hope the Senate hearings on the Twa seniority mess ends up on TV for all to hear. What one employee was told that he is not part of AA period by the local TWU union and they will not help him is a crime when they are taking dues from other former TWA people who are working.
And in light of the fact that that the laid off TWA mechanics have an AA employee number seems like they should be representing the mechanics.
Please someone tell me how a union will not help a laid off worker when they are hiring people off the street in his same class and it is same local for the laid off mechanic and the one AA hired off the street after the other mechanic was laid off.
And do not try and tell and laid off TWA employee AA is not doing that as the laid off mechanic has proof on a floppy disk it was done.
Now lets see if that is right how much would AA owe all the laid off TWA mechanics in back pay. Oh and by the way the local labor lawyers would really like this one.

 

[acmech]

I think that I know what you, working man are trying to say. The title 1 seniority list dated as of 9/30/02 clearly shows that American Airlines hired mechanics off of the street in 2002 and in 2001 in places like ORD, AFW, TUL, BOS, SFO, etc. So the integrety of both American Airlines and the TWU should be called into question as to why this occured while mechanics from TWA LLC with American Airlines emploee numbers were not offered these positions over people American hired in off of the street.The TWU would not back stab these laid off mechanics would they?

Now that this issue has been brought out, what, if anything is going to be done to correct this problem that both the Airline and TWU created? How about back pay to all the laid off TWA mechanics? These positions should have been offered to the laid off mechanics first before the company went to the street. How about a revisit to the Kashner ruling pertaining to the no system flush clause. There are clearly former TWA mechanics laid off that have more seniority then those at the bottom of the title 1 list dated 9/30/02. This is clearly a grievence the comoany brought on itself, the question is, who is going to have the guts to file the grievence.

Have a nice day.

 

[Buck]

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On 6/13/2003 10:54:19 PM acmech wrote:

I think that I know what you, working man are trying to say. The title 1 seniority list dated as of 9/30/02 clearly shows that American Airlines hired mechanics off of the street in 2002 and in 2001 in places like ORD, AFW, TUL, BOS, SFO, etc. So the integrety of both American Airlines and the TWU should be called into question as to why this occured while mechanics from TWA LLC with American Airlines emploee numbers were not offered these positions over people American hired in off of the street.The TWU would not back stab these laid off mechanics would they?

Now that this issue has been brought out, what, if anything is going to be done to correct this problem that both the Airline and TWU created? How about back pay to all the laid off TWA mechanics? These positions should have been offered to the laid off mechanics first before the company went to the street. How about a revisit to the Kashner ruling pertaining to the no system flush clause. There are clearly former TWA mechanics laid off that have more seniority then those at the bottom of the title 1 list dated 9/30/02. This is clearly a grievence the comoany brought on itself, the question is, who is going to have the guts to file the grievence.

Have a nice day.

----------------​

And who is going to grieve the TWU for it''s error? You will have a Duty of Fair Representation issue to deal with.

 

[Workingman]

Well Buck I thought a statement like that would be the kind to be the first from an AA employee and it is so typical of the stuff that has been going on.
Why can''t the AA people admit when a wrong has been done. The point is the TWU has not been representing TWA employees and when they do the JOB THAT THEY ARE GETTING PAID FOR THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL THERE BE PEACE.
This wrong that has been done is a crime and the people at AA know it.
It sure is funny that our government goes after the Imclone CEO and reminds him in court all the harm he has done and the guy gets 7yrs for it and a fine also, well please tell me what you think how much harm has been caused by Carty and he gets away with it (for now).
Not only that but the government is going after Stewart for lying but Carty lied to Judge Walsh about hiring the TWA people and this proves it as you know as well as I they TWA mechanics should have been called.
Don''t try to say companies do not do that because back in the early 70''s United pulled that with laid off mechanics at ORD when they hired off the street in Frisco. So it looks like if the IAM can''t do it the TWU can''t either. You know it like brotherhood and seniorty and all that bull.
Also this issue is not only with TWU it is also with AA even if the union will not help the laid off mechanics a labor laywer would and if the union will not help there is a lawsuit there and back pay to these mechanics.
Now I know why all you people shut-up when the TWA people were asking for the Title 1 senority list or even where to find it and maybe why the union was so quite about it what a scam the union and company pulled but now that this is before the Senate hearing this will all come out plus a couple of lawsuits as I don''t for a minute believe that the mechanics where the only class they did this to.

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree that AMRs AA should have hired the laid off AMR/TWALLC workers before they hired new workers off the street. Some were transfers from other departments. But it was cruel to them and to you. It was wrong and at least at the local level we told mgmt it was wrong. They should have brought the TWA guys back with new dates and settled the rest later.

As far as the rest of how you feel that you guys got the short end of the stick I have to ask where do you think TWA would be today?

I think that most would agree that it would be gone. All those TWA workers would be looking for work with no recall rights anywhere. When you did get another job it would be on the bottom, bottom pay, bottom vacation, bottom seniority.

The alternative that you got was better than what those from Pan Am or EAL got. Yea you lost, but not as much as they did. You had the opportunity to leave TWA. All the carriers were hiring in the 90s. You chose to stay with a carrier that was obviously dying a slow death. They had already filed bankruptcy twice. Meanwhile the EAL and Pan Am workers were putting in their time all over again. They are finally getting decent shifts, vacations, days off etc at AA and some expect them to step aside and let TWA guys to come in and take all that they feel they earned at TWA from AA. The fact is what happened to you guys stinks, but it would just as foul to expect the people at AA to suffer the consequences of another carriers failed management and make them suffer to protect TWA workers who chose to stay.

Even if you are laid off you are still better off than they were, more than likely, eventually you will get recalled to AA. When you do, even though you may have never worked a day there you will go there with the same credited time towards your pay, vacation etc as you had at TWA.

 

[acmech]

I think that the whole point of this discusion is the fact that American Airlines, last year, hired off of the street while at the same time there were TWA Mechanics on layoff elsewhere in the system. These jobs should have gone to those on layoff, they did not. Instead American hired off of the street as evidenced by the title 1 seniority list as of 9/30/02.

The second point of this discusion is one of accountability. The TWU failed in its duty to represent the interests of the laid off mechanics, no matter who they are. THE COMPANY WAS ALLOWED TO HIRE OFF OF THE STREET AND NOTHING WAS DONE!! Some union and some company, it just amazes me that this goes on.

 

[Bob Owens]

What this comes down to is legal vs moral.

Unfortunately legal usually wins out over moral.

If there were laid off TWA guys, that at the time were still IAM, on the street, morally, they should have been offered the job at AA first. Legally there was no way to put this in place. Under what article would you grieve this? Where is the contractual language that says that AA must hire a laid off employee of another AMR subsidy, in a different union, before hiring off the street?

It stinks but your long term prospects are still better, should you choose to remain in this industry, than if AMR had not bought TWA. When you do come back you go right to whatever pay level you left TWA plus credit for time, sick days etc.

 

[Workingman]

----------------
On 6/13/2003 1155 PM Buck wrote:

----------------
On 6/13/2003 10:54:19 PM acmech wrote:

I think that I know what you, working man are trying to say. The title 1 seniority list dated as of 9/30/02 clearly shows that American Airlines hired mechanics off of the street in 2002 and in 2001 in places like ORD, AFW, TUL, BOS, SFO, etc. So the integrety of both American Airlines and the TWU should be called into question as to why this occured while mechanics from TWA LLC with American Airlines emploee numbers were not offered these positions over people American hired in off of the street.The TWU would not back stab these laid off mechanics would they?

Now that this issue has been brought out, what, if anything is going to be done to correct this problem that both the Airline and TWU created? How about back pay to all the laid off TWA mechanics? These positions should have been offered to the laid off mechanics first before the company went to the street. How about a revisit to the Kashner ruling pertaining to the no system flush clause. There are clearly former TWA mechanics laid off that have more seniority then those at the bottom of the title 1 list dated 9/30/02. This is clearly a grievence the comoany brought on itself, the question is, who is going to have the guts to file the grievence.

Have a nice day.

----------------​

And who is going to grieve the TWU for it''s error? You will have a Duty of Fair Representation issue to deal with.
All the laid off TWA mechanics who were not called about the positions will grieve the TWU for it''s error. Yes they might have a Duty of Fair Representation issue to deal with.
"In December 2001 the TWU petitioned the NMB (National Mediation Board) to declare "single carrier" status at AA and TWALLc. On March 27, 2002, the NMB determined that AA and TWALLC are a single transportation system for purposes of labor representation."​

 

[Workingman]

American Airlines had full knowledge of the seniority issues of the work groups at the company. On January 17, 2002, the IAM and the TWU informed American that they had agreed to enter into binding arbitation regarding the seniorilty ingegration of their respective members. Does this sound like TWU knew what was going on if they were informing the company of different issues?
I thought that on March 27,2002 the NMB determined that AA and TWA were a single transportation system for purposes of labor representation. I also thought that there was a statement in the TWU contract that no AA employee would be harmed by a buy out or merger of another company. Doesn''t that mean that if the TWA mechanics had an AA employee number they fell under the TWU contract and as such could not be harmed by the company hiring off the street?



Evil reigns when good people remain silent.

 

[Buck]

On January 17, 2002, the IAM and the TWU informed American that they had agreed to enter into binding arbitation regarding the seniorilty ingegration of their respective members.

 

[Buck]

duplicate

 

[Buck]

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On 6/14/2003 4:44:42 PM Workingman wrote:

Well Buck I thought a statement like that would be the kind to be the first from an AA employee and it is so typical of the stuff that has been going on.

Let me make one thing very clear. From the beginning of this whole seniority issue I have publically taken a position of "Dovetailing". From this perspective, I admit that you were done wrong, but not by American Airlines, but by the the TWU and the IAM.

Why can''t the AA people admit when a wrong has been done. The point is the TWU has not been representing TWA employees and when they do the JOB THAT THEY ARE GETTING PAID FOR THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL THERE BE PEACE.
This wrong that has been done is a crime and the people at AA know it.
It sure is funny that our government goes after the Imclone CEO and reminds him in court all the harm he has done and the guy gets 7yrs for it and a fine also, well please tell me what you think how much harm has been caused by Carty and he gets away with it (for now).
Not only that but the government is going after Stewart for lying but Carty lied to Judge Walsh about hiring the TWA people and this proves it as you know as well as I they TWA mechanics should have been called.
Don''t try to say companies do not do that because back in the early 70''s United pulled that with laid off mechanics at ORD when they hired off the street in Frisco. So it looks like if the IAM can''t do it the TWU can''t either. You know it like brotherhood and seniorty and all that bull.
Also this issue is not only with TWU it is also with AA even if the union will not help the laid off mechanics a labor laywer would and if the union will not help there is a lawsuit there and back pay to these mechanics.
Now I know why all you people shut-up when the TWA people were asking for the Title 1 senority list or even where to find it and maybe why the union was so quite about it what a scam the union and company pulled but now that this is before the Senate hearing this will all come out plus a couple of lawsuits as I don''t for a minute believe that the mechanics where the only class they did this to.

----------------​

 

[Workingman]

Integrate--unify,combine,desegregate
Segregrate--isolate,sever,split up
Stapling another companies workforce at the bottom of a list is far from integration it is more like isolating and setting apart from the AA workforce.

Glad to see that some people did take a position of "Dovetailing." The wrong was done by both AA and TWU. AA hired off the street without notifing the laid off mechanics not the union. The TWU should have put a stop to this then. Now they do not want to even file a grievance stating that those mechanics are not an AA employee even though they have an AA employee number and have recall rights.

Yes there was binding arbitation.

"The arbitrator was guided by his obligation per Section 3 and 4 of the Allegheny-Mohawk labor protective provisions (which were incorpated into the TWU/AA contract)to treat TWA employees in a fair and equitatable manner."

So if that is in the contract how is hiring off the street and not giving the job to laid off mechanics being treated fairly.

The arbitrator "was required to do this in a way,wich did not adversely impact the rates of pay, hours, and working conditions of American Airlines employees."

Seems that if this is in the contract and the mechanics are employees of AA then that part of the contract was brocken also.

Can anyone tell me if the binding arbitation gave these laid off mechanics an occupational seniority date of 4/9/01 or 4/10/01 depending on the ASMs why can AA hire off the street and not notify these mechanics of these openings?

Seems to me it is odd to see mechanics on the title 1 seniority list with a date of 2002 and the ones on the street have a date of 2001 and the 2002 hire dates did not come from else were in the company. They came from off the street.

 

[sfo2laxfsc]

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On 6/16/2003 10:35:34 PM Workingman wrote:


Integrate--unify,combine,desegregate
Segregrate--isolate,sever,split up
Stapling another companies workforce at the bottom of a list is far from integration it is more like isolating and setting apart from the AA workforce.

Glad to see that some people did take a position of "Dovetailing."  The wrong was done by both AA and TWU.  AA hired off the street without notifing the laid off mechanics not the union.  The TWU should have put a stop to this then.  Now they do not want to even file a grievance stating that those mechanics are not an AA employee even though they have an AA employee number and have recall rights.

Yes there was binding arbitation.  

"The arbitrator was guided by his obligation per Section 3 and 4 of the Allegheny-Mohawk labor protective provisions (which were incorpated into the TWU/AA contract)to treat TWA employees in a fair and equitatable manner." 

So if that is in the contract how is hiring off the street and not giving the job to laid off mechanics being treated fairly.

The arbitrator "was required to do this in a way,wich did not adversely impact the rates of pay, hours, and working conditions of American Airlines employees."

Seems that if this is in the contract and the mechanics are employees of AA then that part of the contract was brocken also.

Can anyone tell me if the binding arbitation gave these laid off mechanics an occupational seniority date of 4/9/01 or 4/10/01 depending on the ASMs why can AA hire off the street and not notify these mechanics of these openings?  

Seems to me it is odd to see mechanics on the title 1 seniority list with a date of 2002 and the ones on the street have a date of 2001 and the 2002 hire dates did not come from else were in the company.  They came from off the street.      
 

----------------

 

[Bob Owens]

You dont have to have system protection to fill a vacancy. Two years is what you need and the arbitrator ruled for exit seniority for the TWA guys.

What this will boil down to is the exact dates. When these guys were hired were the TWA guys part of the TWU or the IAM and under what contract were the TWA guys that were not laid off (MCI,KC,LAX) working?