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- Mar 7, 2003
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http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2003/AM5481/doc...pdf
link to the full transcript of AMW 5481
link to the full transcript of AMW 5481
NTSB Cites Mechanic''s Error in Crash
- Thread starter JS
- Start date
Isnt falsification of maintenance records a federal felony??
That wont help the dead but it might help the next group of
pax from getting on a aircraft that has been "pencil whipped"
to save time or money.Lock them up and throw away the key.The
school I went to used to tell us if you dont know what youre
doing then dont do anything until you are sure you completely
understand what you need to do.Simple enough.
That wont help the dead but it might help the next group of
pax from getting on a aircraft that has been "pencil whipped"
to save time or money.Lock them up and throw away the key.The
school I went to used to tell us if you dont know what youre
doing then dont do anything until you are sure you completely
understand what you need to do.Simple enough.
This does bring up a very interesting point. Our average bag weight does need to be increased. Why couldn''t the scale weigh the bag prior to printing a bag tag and then tranfer it into the Weight and Balance so we have an EXACT bag weight for all checked luggage. The only problem I see with this, is that we would have more weight capped flights and most departures will be pressing the envelope.
Again one thing comes to mind......
"FLY CHEAP,DIE CHEAP"
You get what you pay for. Third party maintenance is cost effective at what price towards safety. Yea many say that safety is not compromised. Uhmmmm, really?
ValueJet anybody??? I am sure if you search around the net you will find incidences that are directly related to third party maintenance unsafe practices. We all make mistakes, but when you have a lower operating budget you cut back on issues like quality control and can only afford inexperienced help. FAR 66 anyone???
"FLY CHEAP,DIE CHEAP"
You get what you pay for. Third party maintenance is cost effective at what price towards safety. Yea many say that safety is not compromised. Uhmmmm, really?
ValueJet anybody??? I am sure if you search around the net you will find incidences that are directly related to third party maintenance unsafe practices. We all make mistakes, but when you have a lower operating budget you cut back on issues like quality control and can only afford inexperienced help. FAR 66 anyone???
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On 5/22/2003 6:18:40 AM wts54 wrote:
Isnt falsification of maintenance records a federal felony??
That''s what lawyers get paid for....Can you say Emery, Valuejet, Fine Air..and the list goes on....many should have went to jail, but the lawyers freed them....I guess the body count wasn''t big enough!!!
On 5/22/2003 6:18:40 AM wts54 wrote:
Isnt falsification of maintenance records a federal felony??
That''s what lawyers get paid for....Can you say Emery, Valuejet, Fine Air..and the list goes on....many should have went to jail, but the lawyers freed them....I guess the body count wasn''t big enough!!!
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On 5/21/2003 6
16 PM PineyBob wrote:
Thank You Bob Owens!
I appreciate the time taken to answer my questions. As for your cheapo-tickets comment I would ask you these questions.
When I go to the US Website, exactly who is it that sets the prices that are displayed there?? ME? or the Company?
The company.
I may be wrong but I think it is the company that sets fares based on what they believe to be market conditions. So if we apply that to your personal life and we visit the gas station where you by gas, which is locally owned by a guy who has a pregnant wife, you know he is struggling to make ends meet. The price set on the pump is $1.439/gal, The cheapest in town. Do you Mr. Owens offer him $1.539 out of concern for his family? Or do you pay the price on the pump?
If I go to a station where he is selling the gas for less than he pays for it I should not be suprised when my car konks out due to fuel contamination.
So in the future spare me the cheapo ticket price diatribe unless you are so socially concious that you don''t shop at Wal-Mart because they put small stores out of business with predatory prices, or if you only shop at union grocery stores to assist your union brothers earn their "living wage". When you talk the talk Mr Owens it is helpful to walk the walk.
Well I dont shop at Wal-Mart, I dont even know where there is one and I do shop at a Union grocery store.
Me I don''t talk the talk, because I don''t want to walk the walk in this case.
OK so?
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On 5/21/2003 6
16 PM PineyBob wrote:Thank You Bob Owens!
I appreciate the time taken to answer my questions. As for your cheapo-tickets comment I would ask you these questions.
When I go to the US Website, exactly who is it that sets the prices that are displayed there?? ME? or the Company?
The company.
I may be wrong but I think it is the company that sets fares based on what they believe to be market conditions. So if we apply that to your personal life and we visit the gas station where you by gas, which is locally owned by a guy who has a pregnant wife, you know he is struggling to make ends meet. The price set on the pump is $1.439/gal, The cheapest in town. Do you Mr. Owens offer him $1.539 out of concern for his family? Or do you pay the price on the pump?
If I go to a station where he is selling the gas for less than he pays for it I should not be suprised when my car konks out due to fuel contamination.
So in the future spare me the cheapo ticket price diatribe unless you are so socially concious that you don''t shop at Wal-Mart because they put small stores out of business with predatory prices, or if you only shop at union grocery stores to assist your union brothers earn their "living wage". When you talk the talk Mr Owens it is helpful to walk the walk.
Well I dont shop at Wal-Mart, I dont even know where there is one and I do shop at a Union grocery store.
Me I don''t talk the talk, because I don''t want to walk the walk in this case.
OK so?
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On 5/22/2003 9
47 AM PineyBob wrote:
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Sure it does, when the volume of work does not warrant full time employees. Unfortunately sometimes dead passengers are cheaper than making the changes that would have saved them. Thats the way its always been in this industry from poisionous materials in the cabin to cheaping out on aircraft maintenance. Its only when the body count gets high enough or there is enough public outrage are changes made.On 5/22/2003 9
47 AM PineyBob wrote:Outsourcing HAS a place in modern business, given US''s prior track record and the challenges facing the industry in general I think it would be wise to look elsewhere for areas to save by outsourcing then such a mission critical task like aircraft maintenance. Frankly dead PAX are not nearly as profitable as live ones! US needs to clean up and outsource support functions at CCY before they tackle aircraft maintenance.
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On 5/23/2003 6:25:46 AM smfav8r wrote:
On 5/23/2003 6:25:46 AM smfav8r wrote:
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On 5/22/2003 6:18:40 AM wts54 wrote:
Isnt falsification of maintenance records a federal felony??
That''s what lawyers get paid for....Can you say Emery, Valuejet, Fine Air..and the list goes on....many should have went to jail, but the lawyers freed them....I guess the body count wasn''t big enough!!!
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Either that or the FAA was afraid that it would cost the airlines too much money if every mechanic followed the manual to the "T" at every single instance. Airlines have sought and recieved injuctions to prevent mechanics from doing just that.On 5/22/2003 6:18:40 AM wts54 wrote:
Isnt falsification of maintenance records a federal felony??
That''s what lawyers get paid for....Can you say Emery, Valuejet, Fine Air..and the list goes on....many should have went to jail, but the lawyers freed them....I guess the body count wasn''t big enough!!!
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Twicebaked
Veteran
- May 22, 2003
- 1,788
- 18
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On 5/21/2003 9
17 AM JS wrote:
Whoa, that''s not good.
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Didn''t I read somewhere that this was an "outsource" mechanic? If so, what is being said about outsourcing. Yes, "mistakes" can happen with anyone, but at least when they are your own workers YOU KNOW HOW THEY ARE TRAINED....On 5/21/2003 9
17 AM JS wrote:----------------
On 5/21/2003 931 AM DCAflyer wrote:
The trainee mechanic said during the investigation that he skipped several steps in the maintenance manual as he adjusted the cable tension because he felt they were unnecessary.
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On 5/21/2003 9
31 AM DCAflyer wrote: The trainee mechanic said during the investigation that he skipped several steps in the maintenance manual as he adjusted the cable tension because he felt they were unnecessary.
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Whoa, that''s not good.
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On 5/23/2003 11:59:07 PM Twicebaked wrote:
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yes the whole maintenence function was"outsourced"......forget the outsource issue,the issue here is some #### who thinks his wisdom supercedes the manufacturers maintenence manual to the tune of some 21 lives.after he gets out of jail,may he spend his days as a wal-mart greeter.On 5/23/2003 11:59:07 PM Twicebaked wrote:
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On 5/21/2003 917 AM JS wrote:
Whoa, that''s not good.
----------------
Didn''t I read somewhere that this was an "outsource" mechanic? If so, what is being said about outsourcing. Yes, "mistakes" can happen with anyone, but at least when they are your own workers YOU KNOW HOW THEY ARE TRAINED....On 5/21/2003 9
17 AM JS wrote:----------------
On 5/21/2003 931 AM DCAflyer wrote:
The trainee mechanic said during the investigation that he skipped several steps in the maintenance manual as he adjusted the cable tension because he felt they were unnecessary.
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On 5/21/2003 9
31 AM DCAflyer wrote: The trainee mechanic said during the investigation that he skipped several steps in the maintenance manual as he adjusted the cable tension because he felt they were unnecessary.
----------------
Whoa, that''s not good.
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and btw,those guys from valujet...i beleive 2 went to jail and the other split the country.(one of the jailees was the president of the company i think)
What''s to be said about all the outsource''d companies that do work for all the airlines, charters, etc. Just because the work is outsourced is no reason to jump to the conclusion that it''s unsafe. Lest we forget that there have been accidents as a result of company employed mechanics, too, working under the most stringent of guidelines.
Like PineyBob, I agree that the airlines have created their passengers. We will seek the lowest price available, plain and simple. And why shouldn''t we??! It''s not just airfares we do this with.
Do you pay $150/night for a hotel room when there are rates available for $120? Do you rent a car for $50/day when you can get it for $30/day.
Take it to another level, do you go buy a computer at CompUSA when it costs $300 more than the same one you can get direct from the manufacturer? Same warranty. Same condition.
Shop at all the unionized grocery stores you want (since most are). When one opens down the street with lower prices, paying its non-unionized employees the SAME benfits and pay, you can stand your ground and support your brothers and sisters, but the general public is going to go where their wallets tell them to go. If $25-$50/week can be saved, that''s a good chunk of change that can go into the kids college funds, vacation budget, etc. There''s nothing different about buying a can of soup from union store A or non-union store B.
Like PineyBob, I agree that the airlines have created their passengers. We will seek the lowest price available, plain and simple. And why shouldn''t we??! It''s not just airfares we do this with.
Do you pay $150/night for a hotel room when there are rates available for $120? Do you rent a car for $50/day when you can get it for $30/day.
Take it to another level, do you go buy a computer at CompUSA when it costs $300 more than the same one you can get direct from the manufacturer? Same warranty. Same condition.
Shop at all the unionized grocery stores you want (since most are). When one opens down the street with lower prices, paying its non-unionized employees the SAME benfits and pay, you can stand your ground and support your brothers and sisters, but the general public is going to go where their wallets tell them to go. If $25-$50/week can be saved, that''s a good chunk of change that can go into the kids college funds, vacation budget, etc. There''s nothing different about buying a can of soup from union store A or non-union store B.
Light Years
Veteran
- Aug 27, 2002
- 2,878
- 0
Must be something in the water. Lots of less-than-appropriate posts lately.
bigbusdrvr
Senior
- Mar 2, 2003
- 366
- 12
- Banned
- #29
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On 5/24/2003 11:08:10 AM PHL wrote:
What''s to be said about all the outsource''d companies that do work for all the airlines, charters, etc. Just because the work is outsourced is no reason to jump to the conclusion that it''s unsafe. Lest we forget that there have been accidents as a result of company employed mechanics, too, working under the most stringent of guidelines.
Like PineyBob, I agree that the airlines have created their passengers. We will seek the lowest price available, plain and simple. And why shouldn''t we??! It''s not just airfares we do this with.
Do you pay $150/night for a hotel room when there are rates available for $120? Do you rent a car for $50/day when you can get it for $30/day.
Take it to another level, do you go buy a computer at CompUSA when it costs $300 more than the same one you can get direct from the manufacturer? Same warranty. Same condition.
Shop at all the unionized grocery stores you want (since most are). When one opens down the street with lower prices, paying its non-unionized employees the SAME benfits and pay, you can stand your ground and support your brothers and sisters, but the general public is going to go where their wallets tell them to go. If $25-$50/week can be saved, that''s a good chunk of change that can go into the kids college funds, vacation budget, etc. There''s nothing different about buying a can of soup from union store A or non-union store B.
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If you get life threating situations in a hotel you can run outside an call for help!On 5/24/2003 11:08:10 AM PHL wrote:
What''s to be said about all the outsource''d companies that do work for all the airlines, charters, etc. Just because the work is outsourced is no reason to jump to the conclusion that it''s unsafe. Lest we forget that there have been accidents as a result of company employed mechanics, too, working under the most stringent of guidelines.
Like PineyBob, I agree that the airlines have created their passengers. We will seek the lowest price available, plain and simple. And why shouldn''t we??! It''s not just airfares we do this with.
Do you pay $150/night for a hotel room when there are rates available for $120? Do you rent a car for $50/day when you can get it for $30/day.
Take it to another level, do you go buy a computer at CompUSA when it costs $300 more than the same one you can get direct from the manufacturer? Same warranty. Same condition.
Shop at all the unionized grocery stores you want (since most are). When one opens down the street with lower prices, paying its non-unionized employees the SAME benfits and pay, you can stand your ground and support your brothers and sisters, but the general public is going to go where their wallets tell them to go. If $25-$50/week can be saved, that''s a good chunk of change that can go into the kids college funds, vacation budget, etc. There''s nothing different about buying a can of soup from union store A or non-union store B.
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If your rental car maintanance is faulty you pull over to the side of the road!
If you shop at wallmart you purchase items that in their construction or developement are not life threating!!!
Some thing to remember for the flying public!!
Every person related to the operation of an aircraft for hire (Ticket agent[who screens out the nuts],Ground personell[who load,push back,and clean],Flight Attendant[who staff the emergency exits], Pilots[Duh] are there for one reason only, +SAFETY+
If you short change (pay,working conditions,etc) you are putting the whole process at risk. Remember you get what you pay for!!
So the next time they lock you in an alluminum tube to be shot down a cement strip 2miles long, do you really want to ask your self " Do I feel LUCKY!!"
bigbusdrvr
Senior
- Mar 2, 2003
- 366
- 12
- Banned
- #30
----------------
On 5/24/2003 11:08:10 AM PHL wrote:
What''s to be said about all the outsource''d companies that do work for all the airlines, charters, etc. Just because the work is outsourced is no reason to jump to the conclusion that it''s unsafe. Lest we forget that there have been accidents as a result of company employed mechanics, too, working under the most stringent of guidelines.
Like PineyBob, I agree that the airlines have created their passengers. We will seek the lowest price available, plain and simple. And why shouldn''t we??! It''s not just airfares we do this with.
Do you pay $150/night for a hotel room when there are rates available for $120? Do you rent a car for $50/day when you can get it for $30/day.
Take it to another level, do you go buy a computer at CompUSA when it costs $300 more than the same one you can get direct from the manufacturer? Same warranty. Same condition.
Shop at all the unionized grocery stores you want (since most are). When one opens down the street with lower prices, paying its non-unionized employees the SAME benfits and pay, you can stand your ground and support your brothers and sisters, but the general public is going to go where their wallets tell them to go. If $25-$50/week can be saved, that''s a good chunk of change that can go into the kids college funds, vacation budget, etc. There''s nothing different about buying a can of soup from union store A or non-union store B.
----------------
If you get life threating situations in a hotel you can run outside an call for help!On 5/24/2003 11:08:10 AM PHL wrote:
What''s to be said about all the outsource''d companies that do work for all the airlines, charters, etc. Just because the work is outsourced is no reason to jump to the conclusion that it''s unsafe. Lest we forget that there have been accidents as a result of company employed mechanics, too, working under the most stringent of guidelines.
Like PineyBob, I agree that the airlines have created their passengers. We will seek the lowest price available, plain and simple. And why shouldn''t we??! It''s not just airfares we do this with.
Do you pay $150/night for a hotel room when there are rates available for $120? Do you rent a car for $50/day when you can get it for $30/day.
Take it to another level, do you go buy a computer at CompUSA when it costs $300 more than the same one you can get direct from the manufacturer? Same warranty. Same condition.
Shop at all the unionized grocery stores you want (since most are). When one opens down the street with lower prices, paying its non-unionized employees the SAME benfits and pay, you can stand your ground and support your brothers and sisters, but the general public is going to go where their wallets tell them to go. If $25-$50/week can be saved, that''s a good chunk of change that can go into the kids college funds, vacation budget, etc. There''s nothing different about buying a can of soup from union store A or non-union store B.
----------------
If your rental car maintanance is faulty you pull over to the side of the road!
If you shop at wallmart you purchase items that in their construction or developement are not life threating!!!
Some thing to remember for the flying public!!
Every person related to the operation of an aircraft for hire (Ticket agent[who screens out the nuts],Ground personell[who load,push back,and clean],Flight Attendant[who staff the emergency exits], Pilots[Duh] are there for one reason only, +SAFETY+
If you short change (pay,working conditions,etc) you are putting the whole process at risk. Remember you get what you pay for!!
So the next time they lock you in an alluminum tube to be shot down a cement strip 2miles long, do you really want to ask your self " Do I feel LUCKY!!"
