Notice of ALPA Special MEC Meetings

[nostradamus]

Agreed. The East pilots make good on their word of accepting the binding Nic Award and have the National send the list to the company.

Or were you looking for a one sided West compromise to the EAST? Ain't gonna happen.

You got me.

"Death, Where is Thy Sting?"

 

[EastUS]

Agreed. The East pilots make good on their word of accepting the binding Nic Award and have the National send the list to the company.

Or were you looking for a one sided West compromise to the EAST? Ain't gonna happen.

I don't expect much of anything good to come from this Alpo Harrumphing Session myself, But:

Don't overlook the fact that your MEC's also staffed with Alpo "politicans" who don't want to actually fly the line, and certainly wish not to lose THEIR phoney-baloney jobs either. As I understand it; you even have one with but 1500 hours airline time on board. These guys, being Alpo types, would likely sell their mothers into slavery if it'd benefit them...and, assuming they follow the standard pattern; mostly lust after Alpo Nat'l slots, wherein they can comfortably "retire". However cynical that seems....I've been seeing such unfold for decades via MEC's members' actions throughout the industry. Unless you've some fantasy that your Alpo guys are super-duper "Special", and 100% fantatically dedicated to the line guys at AWA, unable to be bribed/coerced by Nat'l/etc...don't be too certain just how this might unfold.

Aquagreen:"Something will be worked out, and then Prater will immediately credit his vision and leadership. He'll declare that it's a great day for all Alpa pilots, that we all "win" because of the consensus (whatever a consensus is supposed to mean in this case), and then he'll declare the following day to be "National Feel Good Oprah BS group Hug Why Can't We All Get Along Day." Then, he'll drive off in his Alpa paid luxury car, drive to a fine restaurant in Georgetown which also will be paid by Alpa, and then settle in for the night at his Alpa paid for residence. Did I miss anything?"

Aquagreen: We differ mostly on the event timeline. The "Something will be worked out" would only possibly come after all the "feel goods" are set forth

 

[aquagreen73s]

Aquagreen: We differ mostly on the event timeline. The "Something will be worked out" would only possibly come after all the "feel goods" are set forth
[/quote]

No doubt it will be an Alpa circle jerk followed by an extravagant dinner paid for by all line pilots. Then both groups get to see the smug faces of their respective reps, complete with their genuine Alpa issue ID necklass and holier than thou attitudes, explain to the respective groups how great the work is that they just completed, how we can move forward in lock step as a united group, blah blah blah. Then each MEC will produce slews of joint"wherefor" resolutions and tout them as proof of the combined resolve of both pulot groups, how Parker is shaking in his boots, SOS.

 

[EastUS]

Aquagreen: We differ mostly on the event timeline. The "Something will be worked out" would only possibly come after all the "feel goods" are set forth
No doubt it will be an Alpa circle jerk followed by an extravagant dinner paid for by all line pilots. Then both groups get to see the smug faces of their respective reps, complete with their genuine Alpa issue ID necklass and holier than thou attitudes, explain to the respective groups how great the work is that they just completed, how we can move forward in lock step as a united group, blah blah blah. Then each MEC will produce slews of joint"wherefor" resolutions and tout them as proof of the combined resolve of both pulot groups, how Parker is shaking in his boots, SOS.

Heavy Sigh...Roger All

 

[Junebug172]

Because I am soon to be associated with pilots that flew to Miami, Australia and Bangkok. Would you like me to elaborate on this subject.

Do tell.

 

[Ardenian]

Aquagreen: We differ mostly on the event timeline. The "Something will be worked out" would only possibly come after all the "feel goods" are set forth
No doubt it will be an Alpa circle jerk followed by an extravagant dinner paid for by all line pilots. Then both groups get to see the smug faces of their respective reps, complete with their genuine Alpa issue ID necklass and holier than thou attitudes, explain to the respective groups how great the work is that they just completed, how we can move forward in lock step as a united group, blah blah blah. Then each MEC will produce slews of joint"wherefor" resolutions and tout them as proof of the combined resolve of both pulot groups, how Parker is shaking in his boots, SOS.

We may disagree on many other things, but you and I are on the same page here. ALPA is concerned only with ALPA. ALPA lifers are lazy, and always take the path of least resistance.

A shame, isn't it?

 

[Bear96]

Sounds terrible. Helpless victims and woe is me and all.

Tell me, don't you guys have elections when you can vote out whom you perceive to be the dead wood, and vote in the people you think would do a better job?

 

[Dog Wonder]

Will there be short busses to the 'special' meeting?

 

[EastUS]

Sounds terrible. Helpless victims and woe is me and all.

Tell me, don't you guys have elections when you can vote out whom you perceive to be the dead wood, and vote in the people you think would do a better job?

Given your "logic" Bear:

Explain how "you guys" elected Clinton...Twice!...and then Bush...Twice!??? There couldn't possibly be factors involved that prevented better candidates from being available? Whew!...It's a relief to know that "you guys have elections..." and it's a pristine and pure process which always produces the finest possible results

 

[EastUS]

We may disagree on many other things, but you and I are on the same page here. ALPA is concerned only with ALPA. ALPA lifers are lazy, and always take the path of least resistance.

A shame, isn't it?

The term shame is most appropriate for what Alpa's actually done (or more properly failed to do) over the last 20+ years.

 

[Bear96]

Given your "logic" Bear:

Explain how "you guys" elected Clinton...Twice!...and then Bush...Twice!??? There couldn't possibly be factors involved that prevented better candidates from being available? Whew!...It's a relief to know that "you guys have elections..."

So your position is that there is absolutely no way to change things at ALPA, so why even try? Oh well; I guess you're right -- you're doomed then!

In any case, I am not sure I am following your flawed analogy. You pointed to two polar opposites (Bush and Clinton). People got tired of one philosophy (Clinton / Democrat), so went with the other. Now people are tired of the Bush / Republican philosophy and you will probably see another switch in 2008. You are also ignoring the switch that happened in Congress in last year's elections. Seems like that supports what I am saying: if you don't like who's in office, vote 'em out.

Contrast that to the ALPA "victims" who just lament the ALPA "lifers" instead of voting them out, and act like there is no way to change anything.

Your example also ignores the fact that the U.S. is fairly evenly split on many red/blue conservative/liberal issues, making major immediate change difficult. Contrast that to what is being asserted here, that the vast majority of ALPA members are soooo dissatisfied with their rotten leaders. If EVERYONE is so unhappy and fired up about ALPA leadership, change at the ballot box should be relatively easy, no? Should be a landslide for your perfect candidate (whoever that is).

Or perhaps your point is that you will simply criticize anyone who is elected to anything, no matter what. Yes, it is easier and more fun just to mindlessly criticize than to actually do the heavy lifting to change things.

and it's a pristine and pure process which always produces the finest possible results

Ah, I see -- you are in search of your idea of perfection, and anything less is deserving of ridicule and scorn.

You'll be in for a very frustrating and depressing time dealing with life in general then.

 

[700UW]

People did not get tired of Clinton, he was not running against Bush, guess you forgot it was Gore vs Bush and Gore would be President if we did not have the outdated electorial college.

Clinton would have beaten Bush hands down, the polls showed that point.

 

[aquagreen73s]

We may disagree on many other things, but you and I are on the same page here. ALPA is concerned only with ALPA. ALPA lifers are lazy, and always take the path of least resistance.

A shame, isn't it?

Yes it is a shame and like someone else says, the shame lies in what ALPA fails to do now and has been failing to do over the last two decades. But I disagree with you about "disagreeing about many things." What we probably disagree about is the one big disagreement, which is seniority. That's why it went to arbitration. The reality of the list is that nobody will be moving East-West save for a few commuters on either end. I know of maybe three pilots who commute from the east coast. I think the total migration from West to East will be about three dozen, tops. I have no idea how many from the East will come out West, but I'd be very surprised if it was more than 40 or 50 just by the fact that those same pilots at this point will have commuted for fifteen years or more. I don't know how they lasted commuting all those years, but the one advatage we have is that both airlines were geographically separated. It follows that most pilots have established their lives on the respective sides of this wonderful (but in the process of being fleeced) country and will stay where they are at. I for one will never go back East. I lived in Greenville, SC for a time and my wife and I remember it as a terrific place to live and raise kids. But we're on the West coast and here is where we will stay. Nobody will change that: not Doug, not ALPA, nor what Prater, Stephan and Johnny Mac come up with next week. And that brings up another point - next week has nothing to do with line pilots and everything to do with saving ALPA and Stephan. Johhny Mac is a masterful political player and he'll totally be in his element next week when he gets to horse trade against Stephan and Prater and he (Johnny) gets to do it when he has the mojo. Next week has more to do with individual futures at ALPA national than anything else. But no matter what actually gets spun out of Herndon, the reality is that virtually no pilots will be moving east or west. Attrition will be captured whether or not it's in writing. But just as the players focus on their individual futures, the rank and file USAirways pilots need to focus on ours. It's the F/O groups which are really in need of aggressive protection for two reasons: (1) stagnant growth and (2) age 65. It's bad enough for West F/Os but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's the older, East F/Os that are really in a bad situation.

[Side comment about the arbitration. And this will be my last comment ever about it because I'm so fatigued talking about it. But given the situation of the East F/Os, I can see where the hardline DOH stance had wide support among East pilots. The PHL LEC was all too happy to jump on board because the DOH or nothing approach is consistent with their brand of union leadership. The problem is that the PHL LEC type "take no hostages" approach is fine when dealing with a Lorenzo, but to do it in an arbitration is suicide.]

Now that we're where we are at, we the rank and file need to figure out where we are going. We sure as heck can't rely on our current CBA leadership to do it. Mainline pilots need to secure all EMB 170/190 flying and the next contract has to favor the F/O ranks. I'm not trying to pit F/Os against Captains, but I think most captains will understand that the right seat right now is a dead end and it will be a brick wall for many when age 65 goes through. We also need to look out for the WOs and insist that all non-mainline flying be phased out unless it's with the WOs. Additionally, the WOs need to be brought in under the mainline union umbrella. If Parker wants to lead the way with industry consolidation, then it's time that the pilots grab management around the neck and force them to do what the successful global carriers are doing with RJs - having mainline do the flying. I'm glad to see that there will be some sort of flow through from the WOs, but what is being proposed is far from adequate.

Happy Fourth to all. We're blessed to be able to squabble in a free and open forum thanks to what was signed 231 years ago and thanks to the sacrifices by many since then.

 

[A320 Driver]

Yes it is a shame and like someone else says, the shame lies in what ALPA fails to do now and has been failing to do over the last two decades. But I disagree with you about "disagreeing about many things." What we probably disagree about is the one big disagreement, which is seniority. That's why it went to arbitration. The reality of the list is that nobody will be moving East-West save for a few commuters on either end. I know of maybe three pilots who commute from the east coast. I think the total migration from West to East will be about three dozen, tops. I have no idea how many from the East will come out West, but I'd be very surprised if it was more than 40 or 50 just by the fact that those same pilots at this point will have commuted for fifteen years or more. I don't know how they lasted commuting all those years, but the one advatage we have is that both airlines were geographically separated. It follows that most pilots have established their lives on the respective sides of this wonderful (but in the process of being fleeced) country and will stay where they are at. I for one will never go back East. I lived in Greenville, SC for a time and my wife and I remember it as a terrific place to live and raise kids. But we're on the West coast and here is where we will stay. Nobody will change that: not Doug, not ALPA, nor what Prater, Stephan and Johnny Mac come up with next week. And that brings up another point - next week has nothing to do with line pilots and everything to do with saving ALPA and Stephan. Johhny Mac is a masterful political player and he'll totally be in his element next week when he gets to horse trade against Stephan and Prater and he (Johnny) gets to do it when he has the mojo. Next week has more to do with individual futures at ALPA national than anything else. But no matter what actually gets spun out of Herndon, the reality is that virtually no pilots will be moving east or west. Attrition will be captured whether or not it's in writing. But just as the players focus on their individual futures, the rank and file USAirways pilots need to focus on ours. It's the F/O groups which are really in need of aggressive protection for two reasons: (1) stagnant growth and (2) age 65. It's bad enough for West F/Os but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's the older, East F/Os that are really in a bad situation.

[Side comment about the arbitration. And this will be my last comment ever about it because I'm so fatigued talking about it. But given the situation of the East F/Os, I can see where the hardline DOH stance had wide support among East pilots. The PHL LEC was all too happy to jump on board because the DOH or nothing approach is consistent with their brand of union leadership. The problem is that the PHL LEC type "take no hostages" approach is fine when dealing with a Lorenzo, but to do it in an arbitration is suicide.]

Now that we're where we are at, we the rank and file need to figure out where we are going. We sure as heck can't rely on our current CBA leadership to do it. Mainline pilots need to secure all EMB 170/190 flying and the next contract has to favor the F/O ranks. I'm not trying to pit F/Os against Captains, but I think most captains will understand that the right seat right now is a dead end and it will be a brick wall for many when age 65 goes through. We also need to look out for the WOs and insist that all non-mainline flying be phased out unless it's with the WOs. Additionally, the WOs need to be brought in under the mainline union umbrella. If Parker wants to lead the way with industry consolidation, then it's time that the pilots grab management around the neck and force them to do what the successful global carriers are doing with RJs - having mainline do the flying. I'm glad to see that there will be some sort of flow through from the WOs, but what is being proposed is far from adequate.

Happy Fourth to all. We're blessed to be able to squabble in a free and open forum thanks to what was signed 231 years ago and thanks to the sacrifices by many since then.

That was very well put Sir, assuming we can get through/past the current crisis with the seniority award. I think the company is eager to help us find solutions to these problems but if you can't get folks to the table to address them, then it's a dead issue. I honestly believe things are starting to turn for the better though.

The flow through from the W/Os and their capturing all non-mainline flying is imperative. Any scope relief granted to the company needs to benefit the W/Os as well as the mainline. Every pilot working at the W/Os should be moving up to assume their rightful positions on mainline. Speaking for myself, I welcome their experience.

Happy Fourth to you as well.

A320 Driver B)

 

[SegmentKing]

Actually, what do the seniority lists look like at EN and JS? When they "flow up" they get to keep DOH for travel, but I'm not sure if it covers bidding seniority or not.

I only mention this because I know of a lot of early 1980 hires over at Mesa and a handful of upper 1980's at other airlines -- I wasn't sure if all those "old timers" at EN/JS had moved up or not.