Non-labor Costs

[Bear96]

Bear96,

1. It is incredible to me that people like you don't realize the employees of this company have given back in two rounds of concessions over $1.2 Billion a year for almost two years, 20,000 less jobs, termination of the pilots DB plan and work rules given back to the company and dave still has no plan and no vision.

2. It is a proven fact US has the lowest labor cost of the six major airlines larger then itself.

3. And to this date no airline has been saved from going out of business from employee concessions alone.

1. I realize what you all have given up. We have given up a lot here at UA as well (though certainly not as much). Unfortunately for both of us, despite concessions costs appear to still be too high at both airlines so we still have some pain ahead of us at both U and UA.

2. I don't think this is true. Again you seem to be stuck on hourly rates of pay. Figures I have seen that show such things as number of employees per aircraft and TOTAL employee compensation (when you factor in such things as sick leave, pensions, etc.) do not have U at the bottom of the list. If you could post some data to show me wrong, I will gladly stand corrected.

3. So, therefore, using the reciprocal of your logic, employees refusing to give concessions necessarily "saves" the airline? Hmmm, there is a hole in that logic somewhere, as ex-Eastern employees can tell you.

In any case, please don't get me wrong. I am not advocating that U employees give up any more. That is your decision, and it will be a difficult and highly personal one. Were I in your shoes at U, I would probably be advocating no more concessions as well. You have certainly given up more than your fair share. And I tend to believe that at best, another round of concessions will only delay the inevitable for a few more months.

But at least realize the consequence of your choices. Blindly pressing ahead in the mistaken belief that U's total labor costs are already the lowest out there while ignoring the fact that EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE it simply doesn't matter because revenue is still not matching costs despite previous givebacks, does not count in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Bear96]

When you infer that 700uw cannot or will not comprehend the distinction between labor costs and non labor costs you appear to have read more into his post than was there.

Based on that one post in isolation, possibly.

But anyone who has followed his posts over his time will see that is unquestionably her/his theme. For heaven's sake s/he has been posting some variant of it every five minutes for months now, despite much evidence that it is misleading at best.

 

[PITbull]

But at least realize the consequence of your choices. Blindly pressing ahead in the mistaken belief that U's total labor costs are already the lowest out there while ignoring the fact that EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE it simply doesn't matter because revenue is still not matching costs despite previous givebacks, does not count in the grand scheme of things.

Bear 96,

The consequences of choices by U employees will directly EFFECT the UAL employees and the entire industry at large. It will sure count!

If OUR management succeeds in more concession, UAL will surely be the immediate "next in line to the stand". <_<

 

[Bear96]

Bear 96,

The consequences of choices by U employees will directly EFFECT the UAL employees and the entire industry at large. It will sure count!

If management succeeds in more concession, UAL will surely be the immediate "next in line to the stand". <_<

PITbull,

No question. The entire industry and all concerned will be watching PHL and U over the next several months, for those events will have far-reaching impacts for many aspects of the airline business.

However my point in responding to 700UW is that we have to make choices based on the facts, and mindlessly repeating and formulating a choice based on something that is inaccurate and irrelevant does not serve any useful purpose.

In other words, if you (general "you," not PITbull or 700UW "you") have decided no more concessions, no how, no way, fine. But it is not wise to base that decision simply on the thought that you have already given your conception of "enough" or on the mistaken belief that U's total labor costs are already the lowest of the Big 6 or 7, as if that somehow that matters in the final logical analysis (because really, it doesn't).

Rather the decisions should be based on asking such questions as, What are my choices here, unpleasant though they may seem? What are the consequences of my choices? What are all of my employment options and how do they compare to each other?

 

[700UW]

We know our choice, I for one and many of my coworkers know the consequences of our choice.

This so-called management team has lied, cheated and stolen from its employees, if Tilton did that to you, would you be willing to give him more when he can't even adhere to the contracts he has all ready agreed to in two rounds of concessions?

dave siegel and company are out to KILL us, plain and simple, there is a war brewing amongst the company versus the employees, there are no and if or buts, if he had is way US would become a virtual airline with minimal employees and Mesa and anyone else with a plane flying in US' livery.

I for one would rather die with dignity then to live in fear as a coward.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

PB-

You may be right in your speculation. (I don't want to imply that this is your position. I realize that you're just speculating.)

But I think U's difficulty is the transition, monetarily, culturally, and skills-wise.
U is in several double-binds.

It's mostly a monetary problem: How does U convince anybody with $$ to finance its transformation into something more like WN, when those folks have so many other places to put their money, especially when you have the labor culture at U and the lack of management skills in the middle and low ranks to actually operate in a vastly different way? I think the only answer is to present a no-lose situation. Sadly, that involves more concessions from labor.

Again, I have NO IDEA about the real numbers, but at some point, I'd think that snap backs would make sense, since, really, management is asking employees to help finance the transformation. The question is: can U manage to make this dicey transformation and once made, will the new operation be anymore revenue positive than, say, America West. I think that management THEORIZES that U has greater revenue potential than AmWest with a similar, efficient operating strategy, but I don't think it's a slam dunk (as George Tenet might say).

I'm pro-worker in my politics, so I hope that somebody can come up with the capital to transform U. I'm less concerned about the plight of small communities that will lose service. But, the real challenge the the US working class is WELL BEYOND CCY.

 

[700UW]

The employees have all ready financed dave's failure once, with over $1.2 billion a year for almost two years with another billion dollars from the vendors, why would you give someone more money who has squandered billions all ready!

 

[E-TRONS]

Everyone needs to get past the facts and realize that management has NO INTENTION of turning UAIR into a profitable competitor. They are merely attempting to get the bottom line costs down thru more concessions. This way they can show any perspective buyer/merge partner just how cheap it is to operate the company turn key if they so desired.

Make no mistake. This turkey is for sale one way or another That would explain the lack of any viable plan for the company.....it was supposed to be sold off by now but the IRAQ conflict, fuel prices, etc., threw a chock into the clock works. That's why nothing has transpired to date.....but it most certainly will. You heard it from the horse's (arse) mouth himself....."consolidation is inevitable." Now what exactly do you suppose that meant?? <_<

Take it any way you like. Stay in denial if you so desire. But keep in mind that the company you think you are saving with more concessions probably won't be yours.

 

[geo1004]

dave siegel and company are out to KILL us, plain and simple, there is a war brewing amongst the company versus the employees, there are no and if or buts, if he had is way US would become a virtual airline with minimal employees and Mesa and anyone else with a plane flying in US' livery.

I for one would rather die with dignity then to live in fear as a coward.

WOW!

That's all I can say...

As a passenger who flys US all the time (I have done so since I started flying for business over ten years ago) you scare me, 700UW. I really hope your tagline to your posts is true and that you do not work for US Airways in any shape or form.

I'm a very frequent flier and the vast majority of those flights are on US whenever possible. I've held every card US can mail it's top tier elites - from Priority to Priority Gold to Preferred Plus to Gold Preferred to Chairman's Preferred. I've weathered the ups and downs and really gone out of my way to fly this airline. I had friends who would literally laugh at me when I told them I was flying US on a 737-300 to the west coast while they were flying non-stop on a widebody 767. And I have NEVER been one of those rude SOB FF'ers who think they are entitled to everything and then some. As a matter of fact, I had a regular agent at the gates in CLT tell a coworker when I checked in as a CP that I was "one of the rare Chairman's Preferreds who was actually human..."

These ultra-emotional response to attempts to save this airline are very scary. And I really feel for the employees right now. Unfortunately, the ship is sinking and there are 500 people on the decks and only room for about 300 in the lifeboats. My biggest fear is that in an attempt to decide who to save - all will be lost.

 

[PITbull]

PITbull,

No question. The entire industry and all concerned will be watching PHL and U over the next several months, for those events will have far-reaching impacts for many aspects of the airline business.

However my point in responding to 700UW is that we have to make choices based on the facts, and mindlessly repeating and formulating a choice based on something that is inaccurate and irrelevant does not serve any useful purpose.

In other words, if you (general "you," not PITbull or 700UW "you") have decided no more concessions, no how, no way, fine. But it is not wise to base that decision simply on the thought that you have already given your conception of "enough" or on the mistaken belief that U's total labor costs are already the lowest of the Big 6 or 7, as if that somehow that matters in the final logical analysis (because really, it doesn't).

Rather the decisions should be based on asking such questions as, What are my choices here, unpleasant though they may seem? What are the consequences of my choices? What are all of my employment options and how do they compare to each other?

Bear 96,

I agree with your thinking.

Geo,

You are NOT on deck! :angry:

 

[700UW]

I do my job and do not let the outside BS affect my work, I do it to the best of my ability.

But you are just a passenger not an employee.

You have not see, 20,000 of your coworkers hit the street, you have not taken two or three paycuts, you have not seen all US employees with less vacation, sick time, holidays. You have not had your pension taken away from you when you are told by liars(management) vote for concessions to save your pension, you have not told by liars(management) vote for these concessions to save your scope language and watch ten airbus aircraft being flown to a FOREIGN owned company, Singapore Technologies Mobile Aerospace at Brookley Field in MOBILE, AL (hmm RSA's home state) and get overhauled by a 3 to 1 margin of unlicensed mechanics while you coworkers get laid off and have the first two of the AL overhauled airplanes make several emergeny landings due to their shoddy work (Aircraft 700-Several Emergency landings and A/C 706-one emergency landing both for the same problem). You are not paying double or triple for insurance.

You have not seen mainline flights pulled out of your city and the workers forced to move or accept a $6 an hour paycut, then two months later the company bring two mainline jets back into your city and your pay is still cut while paying enormous amounts for medical insurance.

You have not seen 20+ year employees lose their pension, I have a pilot friend who started when he was 20 years old with the company, he lost a $2 million pension that he worked 35 years for, now by law he can only fly for five more years and he will never ever be able to restore anywhere near what his pension should have been.

So you can sit all high and might and judge me and my coworkers who have sacrificed over $2 billion in the past two years and 20,000 jobs to see a so called CEO who made $3.8 Million in 2002 and now going to sign a new employment contract worth $11 million while this company is going down the tubes due to a lack of leadership with a vision, and their only plan is to bankrupt and layoff as many employees as possible.

Until you live it, dont judge any of us!

 

[E-TRONS]

GEO,

The passengers too will suffer from the demise of UAIR. I say this because when the low cost carriers run UAIR out of town just how long do you think their prices will remain so low??

It works something like this in the airline industry. You own the airport in terms of presence and you control the airfares. It doesn't matter if you are speaking of UAIR, DELTA, NWA, CAL, AA or UAL. That's just how it is. The LCC's know this and are just biding their time.

How many travelers bother to compare fares to that which Southwest charges?? After all....they are THE low cost carrier right??? That's all you ever hear. But are they the cheapest at every location.......particularly in cities where they are the largest carrier??? Gee.....I really wonder about that.

 

[geo1004]

700UW: I don't like the current situation either. And there is no doubt that US's employess have been hard hit. I've never claimed otherwise. US has some great frontliners - you'll see passenger after passenger on this board say so. So from our side (that of the passenger) we too would like to see US not only survive but THRIVE. I don't claim that I have anything more than a bunch of FF miles and an "airline of choice" to worry about. That's NOTHING when it comes to someone's livelyhood. I won't belittle the gravity of the employee's situation one bit.

But I do hope that a SOLUTION to the issues can be found. My point is that this stalemate that exsists right now btween CCY and labor is the poison pill that might be what takes US under. That's all I'm saying and I wish the best of luck.


PITBull: If you're looking for a nice little kumbaya session where everyone holds hands and agrees with everyone else then I'm not interested.

 

[PITbull]

Geo,

I'm not interested in any "hugging session" with you or debating you to change your position (whatever that might be).

When it comes to U's concessions #3, in my mind's eye, you are irrelevant to that equation.

 

[geo1004]

When it comes to U's concessions #3, in my mind's eye, you are irrelevant to that equation.

Fair enough. It's up to you to vote/say yes or no to whatever comes your way.