New Proposal for the Mechanics is Coming

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 12/3/2002 4:02:56 PM UAL24 wrote:

UALDRVR,

Good post. Your point #7 about giving back the raises they got this year is not quite right however. IAM 30plus% raise minus the 7%cut is still a larger raise than ALPA got. ALPA got a 28%raise and are taking an 18% cut under the concessionary contract. That should make the mechanics happy to know they are gaining ground on the pilots.

UAL777,

Another fine post. It does seem the reasons consistently given will not in any way be solved by the current sentiment coming from the 141M members. They are kind of boxed into a corner by all of their own rhetoric so to change their vote, even though many want to, would in their world give a victory to the Pilots and Management employees. UAL will be liquidated. Nothing will change that short of a yes vote. The jobs are not out there and that will be yet another harsh reality they will have to deal with. If they do get a job they will not be viewed as conquering heroes hoisted upon the shoulders of the employees thankfull that they bring all of their wonderfull Airplane experience to the Mr. Goodwrench. Lot of applicability between planes and cars I know.

UAL will not survive and will close it's doors in Feb or March with a no vote.
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[/blockquote]

Wow, what conceit! This guy thinks the mechanics rejection of the deal has something to do with the pilots. Grow up flyboy, the world does not revolve around you.The only reason that pilots came into the discussion is because of their interjection about how the mechanics must submit. Those pilots who went and lambasted, threatened and pleaded with mechanics to accept a six year concessionary deal, then tried to blame the mechanics for the companies difficulties left the mechanics little choice than to go right back after the pilots who are the highest paid, by far, of all the airline employees. Go ahead and keep butt sniffing each other, your post is a glaring example of your conceit and is one of the reasons why pilot input is completely ignored by the mechanics.

 

[UnitedChicago]

Why do you feel that liquidation is the forgone conclusion if UA goes CH11? They are close to $1.5B in DIP financing. While I think the concession agreements are voided if the ATSB doesn't provide the loan...at least there is a framewok from which to continue negotiations.

UA has the best route structure in the world.

Some may say that - to the creditors - UA would provide a better settlement if they were liquidated. This just doesn't make sense. Who could afford to buy major assets?

It's in the creditor's best interest to partake in a successful reorganization and have them emerge.

For as much as I hate the analysts...none have implied or speculated that liquidation would occur. Not to mention the powerful political muscle behind UA.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see liquidation happening.

 

[UnitedChicago]

Why do you feel that liquidation is the forgone conclusion if UA goes CH11? They are close to $1.5B in DIP financing. While I think the concession agreements are voided if the ATSB doesn't provide the loan...at least there is a framewok from which to continue negotiations.

UA has the best route structure in the world.

Some may say that - to the creditors - UA would provide a better settlement if they were liquidated. This just doesn't make sense. Who could afford to buy major assets?

It's in the creditor's best interest to partake in a successful reorganization and have them emerge.

For as much as I hate the analysts...none have implied or speculated that liquidation would occur. Not to mention the powerful political muscle behind UA.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see liquidation happening.

 

[Bob Owens]

ual24;
"Lot of applicability between planes and cars I know."

Most of the mechanics I know have no problem walking from the airplane to their car or their washing machine or any other mechanical or electrical device that does not work and fixing it. A schematic or a wiring diagram looks basically the same whether it’s for a power seat in a car or an autopilot in a 777. If you can read one for the 777 you can read the other. At most A&P schools various industries solicit students directly from school and try and lure mechanics away from the industry. They are very successful. Many times I’ve come across people who chose that path and they always seem a little wistful that they didn’t go work on the “big onesâ€. You see the principles of troubleshooting are basically the same whether it’s a car, boat, plane, control system or just about any other electrical or mechanical device and an A&P is considered to be trained on hydraulic, pneumatic and electrical systems. So yes the skills are highly transferable to other industries. Our biggest problem is that as a group we were never as focused as you pilots. We failed to bother to form our own union on an industry wide basis. Perhaps it was because we knew that if we ever really couldn’t stick this work any more we could roll our tools out the door and go to some other industry. We get satisfaction from solving problems and fixing things. Moving up, career opportunity to us means better shifts and days off. It’s not uncommon to have very junior mechanics take Crew Chief jobs as senior mechanics pass it by. Most consider the slight difference in pay insufficient to justify the extra aggravation. It’s also common for Crew Chiefs to step down when they figure that they could get a better shift as a regular mechanic. That’s why the company put a limit on how many times an employee could step down. I’ve even seen where the workers who were younger than some of the cars that the mechanics drive to work and are still on probation go straight into management to avoid a layoff. No one in a station with over 400 mechanics even applied for the job. The fact is, that a good mechanic at any airline should have little difficulty in finding employment that would offer equal or greater opportunity than he realizes in aviation, but the fact is, most of those jobs just aren’t as much fun despite all our bitching.

 

[Bob Owens]

ual24;
"Lot of applicability between planes and cars I know."

Most of the mechanics I know have no problem walking from the airplane to their car or their washing machine or any other mechanical or electrical device that does not work and fixing it. A schematic or a wiring diagram looks basically the same whether it’s for a power seat in a car or an autopilot in a 777. If you can read one for the 777 you can read the other. At most A&P schools various industries solicit students directly from school and try and lure mechanics away from the industry. They are very successful. Many times I’ve come across people who chose that path and they always seem a little wistful that they didn’t go work on the “big onesâ€. You see the principles of troubleshooting are basically the same whether it’s a car, boat, plane, control system or just about any other electrical or mechanical device and an A&P is considered to be trained on hydraulic, pneumatic and electrical systems. So yes the skills are highly transferable to other industries. Our biggest problem is that as a group we were never as focused as you pilots. We failed to bother to form our own union on an industry wide basis. Perhaps it was because we knew that if we ever really couldn’t stick this work any more we could roll our tools out the door and go to some other industry. We get satisfaction from solving problems and fixing things. Moving up, career opportunity to us means better shifts and days off. It’s not uncommon to have very junior mechanics take Crew Chief jobs as senior mechanics pass it by. Most consider the slight difference in pay insufficient to justify the extra aggravation. It’s also common for Crew Chiefs to step down when they figure that they could get a better shift as a regular mechanic. That’s why the company put a limit on how many times an employee could step down. I’ve even seen where the workers who were younger than some of the cars that the mechanics drive to work and are still on probation go straight into management to avoid a layoff. No one in a station with over 400 mechanics even applied for the job. The fact is, that a good mechanic at any airline should have little difficulty in finding employment that would offer equal or greater opportunity than he realizes in aviation, but the fact is, most of those jobs just aren’t as much fun despite all our bitching.

 

[ual747mech]

[blockquote]
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On 12/3/2002 1140 AM synchronicity wrote:

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[/blockquote]
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I completely expect that, if the Mechanics vote no on Thursday, United will file for Chapter 11 on or before Monday, December 9. My best guess is Sunday the 8th.

Come back and let me know if I'm wrong. Personally, I hope 141-M votes yes so this remains hypothetical.

-synchronicity
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[/blockquote]

It's going to be 50/50 from what I can tell when talking to the folks at work. I get beat up trying to convince people bankruptcy is not a good alternative, lol. There's a lot of angry folks here. I think it will pass this time, hopefully. If not, c ya guys in BK by Mon.

 

[ual747mech]

[blockquote]
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On 12/3/2002 1140 AM synchronicity wrote:

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[/blockquote]
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I completely expect that, if the Mechanics vote no on Thursday, United will file for Chapter 11 on or before Monday, December 9. My best guess is Sunday the 8th.

Come back and let me know if I'm wrong. Personally, I hope 141-M votes yes so this remains hypothetical.

-synchronicity
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[/blockquote]

It's going to be 50/50 from what I can tell when talking to the folks at work. I get beat up trying to convince people bankruptcy is not a good alternative, lol. There's a lot of angry folks here. I think it will pass this time, hopefully. If not, c ya guys in BK by Mon.

 

[ualdriver]

****Wow, what conceit! This guy thinks the mechanics rejection of the deal has something to do with the pilots. Grow up flyboy, the world does not revolve around you****

Tisk, tisk Bob. If you only had read my post, instead of name calling, you would see that one of your fellow mechanics said that the UAL mechanics' rejection of the deal was partly due to the pilots. Not me or another pilot. A mechanic said it. And I quote from UAL747MECH's post, "..Instead of bashing the mechanics, why don't u ask why the majority overwhelmingly rejected the proposal..I'll tell you why.. the majority are so pissed off that they are willing to bankrupt this airline is because: they don't trust the company, the union, they blame part of problems on the pilots for causing the company to go downwards during the summer of hell which resulted in a hefty pay raise for them and draining the money for the mechanics......"

UAL747MECH listed off the reasons why the mechanics voted down the ERP, and in his opinion (not mine) we (the evil pilots) were partly responsible for the rejection. I only responded to that accusation, which to me was ridiculous but I guess had to be addressed in my opinion.

Keep in mind when you read Bob Owens' posts, that he as an American Airlines employee stands to benefit, in my opinion, both directly and indirectly from United Airlines entering a bankruptcy reorganization.

 

[ualdriver]

****Wow, what conceit! This guy thinks the mechanics rejection of the deal has something to do with the pilots. Grow up flyboy, the world does not revolve around you****

Tisk, tisk Bob. If you only had read my post, instead of name calling, you would see that one of your fellow mechanics said that the UAL mechanics' rejection of the deal was partly due to the pilots. Not me or another pilot. A mechanic said it. And I quote from UAL747MECH's post, "..Instead of bashing the mechanics, why don't u ask why the majority overwhelmingly rejected the proposal..I'll tell you why.. the majority are so pissed off that they are willing to bankrupt this airline is because: they don't trust the company, the union, they blame part of problems on the pilots for causing the company to go downwards during the summer of hell which resulted in a hefty pay raise for them and draining the money for the mechanics......"

UAL747MECH listed off the reasons why the mechanics voted down the ERP, and in his opinion (not mine) we (the evil pilots) were partly responsible for the rejection. I only responded to that accusation, which to me was ridiculous but I guess had to be addressed in my opinion.

Keep in mind when you read Bob Owens' posts, that he as an American Airlines employee stands to benefit, in my opinion, both directly and indirectly from United Airlines entering a bankruptcy reorganization.