New Proposal for the Mechanics is Coming

[Bob Owens]

NOVAGT;
"If the company is not hiring and growing, the company cannot afford to be flexible with your shift and DAT's. "

Growing? Maybe laying off and expecting the same output is a little more accurate.

 

[Bob Owens]

NOVAGT;
"If the company is not hiring and growing, the company cannot afford to be flexible with your shift and DAT's. "

Growing? Maybe laying off and expecting the same output is a little more accurate.

 

[UAL777flyer]

I love it. "relax man...everything's gonna be alright, bro". Really? Tell us all how everything is going to be alright by forcing this company into a bankruptcy filing. Yeah, everything's certainly alright over at US Airways where they have one foot on liquidation and the other foot on a banana peel.

When does the reality of UA's financial situation ever hit home? Do you honestly think your quality of life issues are unique? Jeez, have I got news for you. We've ALL got quality of life issues. And we've all got complaints about supervisors and managers and directors and VP's. The bad apples in the bunch do not solely exist in the maintenance department. It's everywhere. Tilton has already acknowledged the cultural problems within this company. But first things first. Without a financially stable UAL, NOTHING can be changed because this airline will take a permanent dirt nap! So if change is what you want, than give Tilton the tools he needs to stabilize this company so that you can start seeing those changes. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, most of you are saying to yourselves that "we've heard it all before and it never happened." I don't doubt that to be true. But at this point, what better alternatives are out there for us? The job market isn't exactly robust these days. I've been fortunate to meet Tilton personally and hear him speak twice. I truly believe he is the no-nonsense, take-charge leader we've been lacking for years. And he has acknowledged that the culture of this company sucks and that it needs to change and he will make it change, but that he'll need our help in doing so. And make no mistake about it, without the help of all of us, NOTHING will change other than UA becoming another failed airline footnote in history's textbooks!

 

[UAL777flyer]

I love it. "relax man...everything's gonna be alright, bro". Really? Tell us all how everything is going to be alright by forcing this company into a bankruptcy filing. Yeah, everything's certainly alright over at US Airways where they have one foot on liquidation and the other foot on a banana peel.

When does the reality of UA's financial situation ever hit home? Do you honestly think your quality of life issues are unique? Jeez, have I got news for you. We've ALL got quality of life issues. And we've all got complaints about supervisors and managers and directors and VP's. The bad apples in the bunch do not solely exist in the maintenance department. It's everywhere. Tilton has already acknowledged the cultural problems within this company. But first things first. Without a financially stable UAL, NOTHING can be changed because this airline will take a permanent dirt nap! So if change is what you want, than give Tilton the tools he needs to stabilize this company so that you can start seeing those changes. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, most of you are saying to yourselves that "we've heard it all before and it never happened." I don't doubt that to be true. But at this point, what better alternatives are out there for us? The job market isn't exactly robust these days. I've been fortunate to meet Tilton personally and hear him speak twice. I truly believe he is the no-nonsense, take-charge leader we've been lacking for years. And he has acknowledged that the culture of this company sucks and that it needs to change and he will make it change, but that he'll need our help in doing so. And make no mistake about it, without the help of all of us, NOTHING will change other than UA becoming another failed airline footnote in history's textbooks!

 

[ual747mech]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/2/2002 10:59:56 AM UAL777flyer wrote:
[P]I love it. "relax man...everything's gonna be alright, bro". Really? Tell us all how everything is going to be alright by forcing this company into a bankruptcy filing. Yeah, everything's certainly alright over at US Airways where they have one foot on liquidation and the other foot on a banana peel.[BR][BR]When does the reality of UA's financial situation ever hit home? Do you honestly think your quality of life issues are unique? Jeez, have I got news for you. We've ALL got quality of life issues. And we've all got complaints about supervisors and managers and directors and VP's. The bad apples in the bunch do not solely exist in the maintenance department. It's everywhere. Tilton has already acknowledged the cultural problems within this company. But first things first. Without a financially stable UAL, NOTHING can be changed because this airline will take a permanent dirt nap! So if change is what you want, than give Tilton the tools he needs to stabilize this company so that you can start seeing those changes. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, most of you are saying to yourselves that "we've heard it all before and it never happened." I don't doubt that to be true. But at this point, what better alternatives are out there for us? The job market isn't exactly robust these days. I've been fortunate to meet Tilton personally and hear him speak twice. I truly believe he is the no-nonsense, take-charge leader we've been lacking for years. And he has acknowledged that the culture of this company sucks and that it needs to change and he will make it change, but that he'll need our help in doing so. And make no mistake about it, without the help of all of us, NOTHING will change other than UA becoming another failed airline footnote in history's textbooks![/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]You know Ual777..Instead of bashing the mechanics, why don't u ask why the majority overwhelmingly rejected the proposal..I'll tell you why.. the majority are so pissed off that they are willing to bankrupt this airline is because: they don't trust the company, the union, they blame part of problems on the pilots for causing the company to go downwards during the summer of hell which resulted in a hefty pay raise for them and draining the money for the mechanics, peterpaul for voting the us air fiasco, goodwin and his gang for the us air fiasco, bizjet that didn't make sense, lack of contract after 6 yrs of concession, which took 2yrs to settle and concession is here again, giving up the pay raise we just got this year till 2008, not getting full retro and paid in installment, no quality of life(****ty schedule and no flexibility) and on and on. So u see ual777, all these things created a lot of anger and bitternes and people(mechs) don't care anymore. They think that whatever the company and the union is saying are bunch of excuses to get concessions and if it's true, "so f***g what." [BR][BR]"I hope you are more sensitive next time, learn why before you post an inflammatory remarks cause it just adds fuel to the fire." [BR][BR]I hope for our sake that the majority(mechs) will cool down and come to a realization that the threat of bankruptcy is real and vote "Yes" on this proposal. [BR][BR]I will be voting "Yes" on this proposal so you don't have to worry about me. I try to explain to my colleagues that bankruptcy is no way to go but as you can see it's hard to convince a lot of them. [BR] [BR] [BR] [/P]

 

[ual747mech]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/2/2002 10:59:56 AM UAL777flyer wrote:
[P]I love it. "relax man...everything's gonna be alright, bro". Really? Tell us all how everything is going to be alright by forcing this company into a bankruptcy filing. Yeah, everything's certainly alright over at US Airways where they have one foot on liquidation and the other foot on a banana peel.[BR][BR]When does the reality of UA's financial situation ever hit home? Do you honestly think your quality of life issues are unique? Jeez, have I got news for you. We've ALL got quality of life issues. And we've all got complaints about supervisors and managers and directors and VP's. The bad apples in the bunch do not solely exist in the maintenance department. It's everywhere. Tilton has already acknowledged the cultural problems within this company. But first things first. Without a financially stable UAL, NOTHING can be changed because this airline will take a permanent dirt nap! So if change is what you want, than give Tilton the tools he needs to stabilize this company so that you can start seeing those changes. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, most of you are saying to yourselves that "we've heard it all before and it never happened." I don't doubt that to be true. But at this point, what better alternatives are out there for us? The job market isn't exactly robust these days. I've been fortunate to meet Tilton personally and hear him speak twice. I truly believe he is the no-nonsense, take-charge leader we've been lacking for years. And he has acknowledged that the culture of this company sucks and that it needs to change and he will make it change, but that he'll need our help in doing so. And make no mistake about it, without the help of all of us, NOTHING will change other than UA becoming another failed airline footnote in history's textbooks![/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]You know Ual777..Instead of bashing the mechanics, why don't u ask why the majority overwhelmingly rejected the proposal..I'll tell you why.. the majority are so pissed off that they are willing to bankrupt this airline is because: they don't trust the company, the union, they blame part of problems on the pilots for causing the company to go downwards during the summer of hell which resulted in a hefty pay raise for them and draining the money for the mechanics, peterpaul for voting the us air fiasco, goodwin and his gang for the us air fiasco, bizjet that didn't make sense, lack of contract after 6 yrs of concession, which took 2yrs to settle and concession is here again, giving up the pay raise we just got this year till 2008, not getting full retro and paid in installment, no quality of life(****ty schedule and no flexibility) and on and on. So u see ual777, all these things created a lot of anger and bitternes and people(mechs) don't care anymore. They think that whatever the company and the union is saying are bunch of excuses to get concessions and if it's true, "so f***g what." [BR][BR]"I hope you are more sensitive next time, learn why before you post an inflammatory remarks cause it just adds fuel to the fire." [BR][BR]I hope for our sake that the majority(mechs) will cool down and come to a realization that the threat of bankruptcy is real and vote "Yes" on this proposal. [BR][BR]I will be voting "Yes" on this proposal so you don't have to worry about me. I try to explain to my colleagues that bankruptcy is no way to go but as you can see it's hard to convince a lot of them. [BR] [BR] [BR] [/P]

 

[synchronicity]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/3/2002 11:31:09 AM ual747mech wrote:
They [the mechanics] think that whatever the company and the union is saying are bunch of excuses to get concessions and if it's true, "so f***g what."

"I hope you are more sensitive next time, learn why before you post an inflammatory remarks cause it just adds fuel to the fire."

I hope for our sake that the majority(mechs) will cool down and come to a realization that the threat of bankruptcy is real and vote "Yes" on this proposal.

I will be voting "Yes" on this proposal so you don't have to worry about me. I try to explain to my colleagues that bankruptcy is no way to go but as you can see it's hard to convince a lot of them.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I completely expect that, if the Mechanics vote no on Thursday, United will file for Chapter 11 on or before Monday, December 9. My best guess is Sunday the 8th.

Come back and let me know if I'm wrong. Personally, I hope 141-M votes yes so this remains hypothetical.

-synchronicity

 

[synchronicity]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/3/2002 11:31:09 AM ual747mech wrote:
They [the mechanics] think that whatever the company and the union is saying are bunch of excuses to get concessions and if it's true, "so f***g what."

"I hope you are more sensitive next time, learn why before you post an inflammatory remarks cause it just adds fuel to the fire."

I hope for our sake that the majority(mechs) will cool down and come to a realization that the threat of bankruptcy is real and vote "Yes" on this proposal.

I will be voting "Yes" on this proposal so you don't have to worry about me. I try to explain to my colleagues that bankruptcy is no way to go but as you can see it's hard to convince a lot of them.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I completely expect that, if the Mechanics vote no on Thursday, United will file for Chapter 11 on or before Monday, December 9. My best guess is Sunday the 8th.

Come back and let me know if I'm wrong. Personally, I hope 141-M votes yes so this remains hypothetical.

-synchronicity

 

[ualdriver]

UAL747mech-

I think your paragraph is probably the most comprehensive as to why the mechanics voted "no". But as an outsider, most of these reasons you list will not be improved by a "no" vote and forcing the company into bankruptcy, and some of them don't even make sense in the first place, no offense. And I don't direct the below observations directly at you UAL747mech- I'm just trying to make sense of your observations.


1) they don't trust the company, the union

There isn't an employee group on the property that completely trusts the company, but we have to work with the new cards we were just dealt. Will you trust them more in a bankruptcy where you contract could be, let's say, "open to discussion"? And if mechanics don't trust THEIR union, why would they vote "no" to drag the whole company down because you're not happy with THEIR elected representation?

2) they blame part of problems on the pilots for causing the company to go downwards during the summer of hell which resulted in a hefty pay raise for them and draining the money for the mechanics,

That "hefty pay raise" covered about 10 years of inflation (6 years back, 4 forward roughly). It's been discussed a million times here and elsewhere and broken down into the simplest pieces. If you still think it's a "hefty pay raise" when basically all it did was cover inflation and regain our snapback, I don't know what else to tell you. I'll admit the summer of hell didn't help, but it didn't drag the company into near bankruptcy. Perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that those horrible summer of hell pilots are having to give up 2 and a half times more than the mechanics for all that trouble they supposedly caused? : ) And I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you REALLY think that your mechanic's salary is dependant upon what raises or cuts pilots, flight attendants, rampers, or other employee groups get, in my opinion you're just plain misinformed. You get what YOUR group negotiates, and from I have seen, particually on the SWA AMFA site, you guys are some of the highest paid mechanics in the industry.

3) peterpaul for voting the us air fiasco, goodwin and his gang for the us air fiasco, bizjet that didn't make sense,

Join the club. We're all unhappy about that. How is voting "no" going to fix the past?

4)lack of contract after 6 yrs of concession, which took 2yrs to settle and concession is here again

Wasn't it YOUR union's choice to wait 2 years to settle your contract while you guys danced with the idea of changing your representation to AMFA? Further, weren't you guys waiting for NWA to settle their mechanics' contract so that you could "one up them" with yours? The IAM is a powerful union that could have settled the contract, like ALPA did, whenever they pleased in my opinion, and they chose to take 2 years for their own reasons. How does a "no" vote, or a "yes" vote for that matter, fix that?

5) giving up the pay raise we just got this year till 2008

Yup, I'll give you that. It sucks. But do the mechanics really think that voting "no" will make any significant difference in the amount of money they will give up in the near future? In or out of bankruptcy, IAM 141M (and all of us for that matter) in my opinion WILL be giving this holiday season, and you won't find it under the Christmas tree.

6) not getting full retro and paid in installment

See #4. I would imagine that any employee group on the property that waits 2 years to settle a contract would have to be paid in retro. Our contract was only delayed a few months and we were stuck with retro payments too. It seems to me that if you were unhappy about that aspect of your contract, that "no" vote should have been cast back when you guys voted for your last contract and not now.

7) no quality of life(****ty schedule and no flexibility) and on and on

That's probably a valid point too. But how will voting "no" and forcing the company into bankruptcy improve your quality of life? I would imagine yours, mine, and my co-workers' quality of lives would get worse in a reorganization.

 

[ualdriver]

UAL747mech-

I think your paragraph is probably the most comprehensive as to why the mechanics voted "no". But as an outsider, most of these reasons you list will not be improved by a "no" vote and forcing the company into bankruptcy, and some of them don't even make sense in the first place, no offense. And I don't direct the below observations directly at you UAL747mech- I'm just trying to make sense of your observations.


1) they don't trust the company, the union

There isn't an employee group on the property that completely trusts the company, but we have to work with the new cards we were just dealt. Will you trust them more in a bankruptcy where you contract could be, let's say, "open to discussion"? And if mechanics don't trust THEIR union, why would they vote "no" to drag the whole company down because you're not happy with THEIR elected representation?

2) they blame part of problems on the pilots for causing the company to go downwards during the summer of hell which resulted in a hefty pay raise for them and draining the money for the mechanics,

That "hefty pay raise" covered about 10 years of inflation (6 years back, 4 forward roughly). It's been discussed a million times here and elsewhere and broken down into the simplest pieces. If you still think it's a "hefty pay raise" when basically all it did was cover inflation and regain our snapback, I don't know what else to tell you. I'll admit the summer of hell didn't help, but it didn't drag the company into near bankruptcy. Perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that those horrible summer of hell pilots are having to give up 2 and a half times more than the mechanics for all that trouble they supposedly caused? : ) And I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you REALLY think that your mechanic's salary is dependant upon what raises or cuts pilots, flight attendants, rampers, or other employee groups get, in my opinion you're just plain misinformed. You get what YOUR group negotiates, and from I have seen, particually on the SWA AMFA site, you guys are some of the highest paid mechanics in the industry.

3) peterpaul for voting the us air fiasco, goodwin and his gang for the us air fiasco, bizjet that didn't make sense,

Join the club. We're all unhappy about that. How is voting "no" going to fix the past?

4)lack of contract after 6 yrs of concession, which took 2yrs to settle and concession is here again

Wasn't it YOUR union's choice to wait 2 years to settle your contract while you guys danced with the idea of changing your representation to AMFA? Further, weren't you guys waiting for NWA to settle their mechanics' contract so that you could "one up them" with yours? The IAM is a powerful union that could have settled the contract, like ALPA did, whenever they pleased in my opinion, and they chose to take 2 years for their own reasons. How does a "no" vote, or a "yes" vote for that matter, fix that?

5) giving up the pay raise we just got this year till 2008

Yup, I'll give you that. It sucks. But do the mechanics really think that voting "no" will make any significant difference in the amount of money they will give up in the near future? In or out of bankruptcy, IAM 141M (and all of us for that matter) in my opinion WILL be giving this holiday season, and you won't find it under the Christmas tree.

6) not getting full retro and paid in installment

See #4. I would imagine that any employee group on the property that waits 2 years to settle a contract would have to be paid in retro. Our contract was only delayed a few months and we were stuck with retro payments too. It seems to me that if you were unhappy about that aspect of your contract, that "no" vote should have been cast back when you guys voted for your last contract and not now.

7) no quality of life(****ty schedule and no flexibility) and on and on

That's probably a valid point too. But how will voting "no" and forcing the company into bankruptcy improve your quality of life? I would imagine yours, mine, and my co-workers' quality of lives would get worse in a reorganization.

 

[gatemech]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/3/2002 1:03:18 PM ualdriver wrote:

Wasn't it YOUR union's choice to wait 2 years to settle your contract while you guys danced with the idea of changing your representation to AMFA? Further, weren't you guys waiting for NWA to settle their mechanics' contract so that you could "one up them" with yours? The IAM is a powerful union that could have settled the contract, like ALPA did, whenever they pleased in my opinion, and they chose to take 2 years for their own reasons. How does a "no" vote, or a "yes" vote for that matter, fix that?

----------------
[/blockquote]

It was the IAM, NMB & the company that cause the 2-year ordeal. Not the membership. The AMFA thing took a few months only because of the NMB & IAM. Tell me how it does any good to have a meeting and then schedule one two months later. Once the NMB gets involved then meetings should go on M-F till there is an agreement. The system is corrupt and that is what caused negotiations to drag on. Also there is a strong possibility that the IAM held out to get more for ramp. I wish I could prove it.

A little off the subject but that paragraph needed to be answered.

 

[gatemech]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/3/2002 1:03:18 PM ualdriver wrote:

Wasn't it YOUR union's choice to wait 2 years to settle your contract while you guys danced with the idea of changing your representation to AMFA? Further, weren't you guys waiting for NWA to settle their mechanics' contract so that you could "one up them" with yours? The IAM is a powerful union that could have settled the contract, like ALPA did, whenever they pleased in my opinion, and they chose to take 2 years for their own reasons. How does a "no" vote, or a "yes" vote for that matter, fix that?

----------------
[/blockquote]

It was the IAM, NMB & the company that cause the 2-year ordeal. Not the membership. The AMFA thing took a few months only because of the NMB & IAM. Tell me how it does any good to have a meeting and then schedule one two months later. Once the NMB gets involved then meetings should go on M-F till there is an agreement. The system is corrupt and that is what caused negotiations to drag on. Also there is a strong possibility that the IAM held out to get more for ramp. I wish I could prove it.

A little off the subject but that paragraph needed to be answered.

 

[UAL24]

UALDRVR,

Good post. Your point #7 about giving back the raises they got this year is not quite right however. IAM 30plus% raise minus the 7%cut is still a larger raise than ALPA got. ALPA got a 28%raise and are taking an 18% cut under the concessionary contract. That should make the mechanics happy to know they are gaining ground on the pilots.

UAL777,

Another fine post. It does seem the reasons consistently given will not in any way be solved by the current sentiment coming from the 141M members. They are kind of boxed into a corner by all of their own rhetoric so to change their vote, even though many want to, would in their world give a victory to the Pilots and Management employees. UAL will be liquidated. Nothing will change that short of a yes vote. The jobs are not out there and that will be yet another harsh reality they will have to deal with. If they do get a job they will not be viewed as conquering heroes hoisted upon the shoulders of the employees thankfull that they bring all of their wonderfull Airplane experience to the Mr. Goodwrench. Lot of applicability between planes and cars I know.

UAL will not survive and will close it's doors in Feb or March with a no vote.

 

[UAL24]

UALDRVR,

Good post. Your point #7 about giving back the raises they got this year is not quite right however. IAM 30plus% raise minus the 7%cut is still a larger raise than ALPA got. ALPA got a 28%raise and are taking an 18% cut under the concessionary contract. That should make the mechanics happy to know they are gaining ground on the pilots.

UAL777,

Another fine post. It does seem the reasons consistently given will not in any way be solved by the current sentiment coming from the 141M members. They are kind of boxed into a corner by all of their own rhetoric so to change their vote, even though many want to, would in their world give a victory to the Pilots and Management employees. UAL will be liquidated. Nothing will change that short of a yes vote. The jobs are not out there and that will be yet another harsh reality they will have to deal with. If they do get a job they will not be viewed as conquering heroes hoisted upon the shoulders of the employees thankfull that they bring all of their wonderfull Airplane experience to the Mr. Goodwrench. Lot of applicability between planes and cars I know.

UAL will not survive and will close it's doors in Feb or March with a no vote.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/3/2002 4:02:56 PM UAL24 wrote:

UALDRVR,

Good post. Your point #7 about giving back the raises they got this year is not quite right however. IAM 30plus% raise minus the 7%cut is still a larger raise than ALPA got. ALPA got a 28%raise and are taking an 18% cut under the concessionary contract. That should make the mechanics happy to know they are gaining ground on the pilots.

UAL777,

Another fine post. It does seem the reasons consistently given will not in any way be solved by the current sentiment coming from the 141M members. They are kind of boxed into a corner by all of their own rhetoric so to change their vote, even though many want to, would in their world give a victory to the Pilots and Management employees. UAL will be liquidated. Nothing will change that short of a yes vote. The jobs are not out there and that will be yet another harsh reality they will have to deal with. If they do get a job they will not be viewed as conquering heroes hoisted upon the shoulders of the employees thankfull that they bring all of their wonderfull Airplane experience to the Mr. Goodwrench. Lot of applicability between planes and cars I know.

UAL will not survive and will close it's doors in Feb or March with a no vote.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Wow, what conceit! This guy thinks the mechanics rejection of the deal has something to do with the pilots. Grow up flyboy, the world does not revolve around you.The only reason that pilots came into the discussion is because of their interjection about how the mechanics must submit. Those pilots who went and lambasted, threatened and pleaded with mechanics to accept a six year concessionary deal, then tried to blame the mechanics for the companies difficulties left the mechanics little choice than to go right back after the pilots who are the highest paid, by far, of all the airline employees. Go ahead and keep butt sniffing each other, your post is a glaring example of your conceit and is one of the reasons why pilot input is completely ignored by the mechanics.