New Legislation To Eradicate Wright/shelby

[Ch. 12]

I can tell you as a fact. AA will move a significant number of flights to DAL if Wright gets repealed and subsequntly the master plan gets modified. If Fortworth wants to build and Airport that is more conveniently located than DFW, the airlines will add flights there as well. ITs how it works. You can not let that airport proliferation weaken the air trasnportation of a region. Denver, Austin and others understood that. Why do you think DFW belonging to a smaller metropolitan area than Houston, is one of the largest. Scale. If Wright gets repealed, in time DFW will move less pax than IAH.

[post="276076"][/post]​

Untruth. Fact is, DFW metro area is nearly 13% larger than HOU which sustains two airports similar to those located in dallas (HOU smaller and closer to downtown but far from recent growth (i.e. DAL) and IAH-larger and closer to recent growth (i.e. DFW).

And comparing to Denver (DFW area is 127% the size of Denver) and Austin (DFW area is 320% larger) is quite illogical. Sure...it makes sense for those two areas to have only one airport. But as I stated above (and you conveniently ignored), PHL is the only other city in the top 11 that has only one real airport. None of the other cities has a crumbling airport. Just to name some: JFK/EWR/LGA, LAX/ONT/SNA/LGB, ORD/MDW, DCA/BWI/IAD, SJC/SFO/OAK, IAH/HOU...

Please post facts...not assumptions.

 

[KCFlyer]

I can tell you as a fact. AA will move a significant number of flights to DAL if Wright gets repealed and subsequntly the master plan gets modified. If Fortworth wants to build and Airport that is more conveniently located than DFW, the airlines will add flights there as well. ITs how it works. You can not let that airport proliferation weaken the air trasnportation of a region. Denver, Austin and others understood that. Why do you think DFW belonging to a smaller metropolitan area than Houston, is one of the largest. Scale. If Wright gets repealed, in time DFW will move less pax than IAH.

[post="276076"][/post]​

On the other hand - with airfares in and out of Dallas dropping, DEMAND will rise. That means that if the price is right, the airport won't matter. If AA moved a "significant" number of flights, their costs would skyrocket - Chicago is a far larger metro area than D/FW - yet AA has only a handful of flights out of MDW - despite the fact the MDW is most likely less expensive AND less prone to traffic delays. Why would Dallas be different?

 

[air_guy]

Untruth. Fact is, DFW metro area is nearly 13% larger than HOU which sustains two airports similar to those located in dallas (HOU smaller and closer to downtown but far from recent growth (i.e. DAL) and IAH-larger and closer to recent growth (i.e. DFW).

And comparing to Denver (DFW area is 127% the size of Denver) and Austin (DFW area is 320% larger) is quite illogical. Sure...it makes sense for those two areas to have only one airport. But as I stated above (and you conveniently ignored), PHL is the only other city in the top 11 that has only one real airport. None of the other cities has a crumbling airport. Just to name some: JFK/EWR/LGA, LAX/ONT/SNA/LGB, ORD/MDW, DCA/BWI/IAD, SJC/SFO/OAK, IAH/HOU...

Please post facts...not assumptions.

[post="276080"][/post]​

Ok I will post facts. I was wrong with the size of the metro areas but still, with WN flying out of HOU, they have not created the traffic stimulation they claim they can create at DAL. The truth is that DFW is bigger and better gateway than IAH. It has contributed signifiacntly to the growth of DFW sorrounding communities. If DFW already has plenty of space, why would the cities create more airport competition. Combining what Delta has left and the new terminal D that are more than 30 gates that will be unused at DFW. If DAL opens up to long haul that number will increase and all the sorrounding communities will suffer. Who do you expect is going to fill those gates. DFW is not a private company taking bets on behalf of random stockholders, it is a Joint-venture beetween all the sorrounding cities. If DFW collapses all the sorrounding cities but Dallas will suffer. Property taxes will sky rocket in sorounding areas. Just so Southwest can make more money. It is going to screw up the same people Soutwest is "trying" to benefit. Since I have to post facts I am attaching the realtive location of DFW/DAL and IAH/HOU. The situation in Houston is so different. The airport may be closer to downtown but is on the other side. If DAL was on the west side of Downtown Dallas I couldnt care less about Wright repeal. DAL and DFW are too darn close. It does not make sense too have two airports so close competing.

 

[AirplaneFan]

I can tell you as a fact. AA will move a significant number of flights to DAL if Wright gets repealed and subsequntly the master plan gets modified. If Fortworth wants to build and Airport that is more conveniently located than DFW, the airlines will add flights there as well. ITs how it works. You can not let that airport proliferation weaken the air trasnportation of a region. Denver, Austin and others understood that. Why do you think DFW belonging to a smaller metropolitan area than Houston, is one of the largest. Scale. If Wright gets repealed, in time DFW will move less pax than IAH.

[post="276076"][/post]​

Dizzying arguments.

1) If Ft. Worth builds an airport NO ONE WILL CARE.

2) I really don't think that Austin tore up its older airport because they were concerned that airlines would try to use the it.

3) What will help DFW more, high fares or lower fares? The best thing for DFW in the LONG TERM is to have lower fares. Do you realize that FLL is twice the size of Miami because of Miami's higher airfares.

4) I have no problem limiting SW to 1/2 the Love gates for the first two years to allow other airlines to make claims on them if they would like them.

5) If AA will be forced to come over to Love to defend its turf, then why hasn't it done so in any large measure in its two other hub airports (Chicago, Miami). With AA you never know how much is what they truly believe and how much is bravado.

 

[AirplaneFan]

Are Ft. Worth citizens similar to French citizens except that have a drawl? Both seem to have massive inferiority complexes.

When I lived down in Texas a few years ago, it seems that is all that Ft. Worth citizens cared about; parity with Dallas. Every position they take is just as a reflex to a position someone else has taken. If Dallas is for keeping Love open, Ft. Worth is against it.

 

[air_guy]

Sothwe.. sorry AirplaneFan

Dizzying arguments.

1) If Ft. Worth builds an airport NO ONE WILL CARE.

That is your opinion

2) I really don't think that Austin tore up its older airport because they were concerned that airlines would try to use the it.

Idem

3) What will help DFW more, high fares or lower fares? The best thing for DFW in the LONG TERM is to have lower fares. Do you realize that FLL is twice the size of Miami because of Miami's higher airfares.

It is not a question of fares... is a question of location and overcapacity. Other LCCs are flying to DFW and WN could move there as well and bring the same lower fares. If traffic does not increase as WN expects and DFW starts emptying up ... who is going to fund that .... the cities? WN is claiming there is overcapacity (quote from Kelley regarding HP/US merger. Where is all the new traffic going to come from is fares are already rock bottom and traffic is at its peak. By the way if DFW was maxed out I would not be arguing here.

4) I have no problem limiting SW to 1/2 the Love gates for the first two years to allow other airlines to make claims on them if they would like them.

That is not WN position

5) If AA will be forced to come over to Love to defend its turf, then why hasn't it done so in any large measure in its two other hub airports (Chicago, Miami). With AA you never know how much is what they truly believe and how much is bravado.

Because the airports are not so close to each other, nor any airport in those cities is so conveniently located ... see my map on prior post and this new two.

Chicago is much bigger than Dallas/Fort Worth. ORD is full
FLL is plaged with congestion, and is not as convenient.

[post="276112"][/post]​

Conclusion. As long as there is room at DFW ... an there is plenty, there is no need for more airport capacity in the Metroplex, specially when that capacity is just next door.

 

[ngneer]

Conclusion. As long as there is room at DFW ... an there is plenty, there is no need for more airport capacity in the Metroplex, specially when that capacity is just next door.

[post="276157"][/post]​

Lifting the Wright Amendment won't change airport capacity; it will change how existing capacity is used. If the Love Field master plan is changed, that will affect airport capacity.

 

[air_guy]

Lifting the Wright Amendment won't change airport capacity; it will change how existing capacity is used. If the Love Field master plan is changed, that will affect airport capacity.

[post="276206"][/post]​

Currently only 20 of 32 gates are in use. W/o Wright new gates will come on-line up to the max w/o changing the master plan. That is unnecessary new capacity, when the airport were all the cites have invested has 30 open gates.

 

[swflyer]

Since I have to post facts I am attaching the realtive location of DFW/DAL and IAH/HOU. The situation in Houston is so different. The airport may be closer to downtown but is on the other side. If DAL was on the west side of Downtown Dallas I couldnt care less about Wright repeal. DAL and DFW are too darn close. It does not make sense too have two airports so close competing.
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[post="276110"][/post]​

Pssst, Air Guy. DAL IS on the west side of downtown Dallas. Thanks for the cool map letting us know.

 

[ngneer]

Currently only 20 of 32 gates are in use. W/o Wright new gates will come on-line up to the max w/o changing the master plan. That is unnecessary new capacity, when the airport were all the cites have invested has 30 open gates.

[post="276236"][/post]​

That would not be adding new capacity. That would simply be using existing capacity that was previously unused.

Your point is that, if the WA is lifted, more flights would be added at DAL, possibly up to the maximum capacity that the airport currently permits. I don't think anyone disputes that as a possibility. The only dispute is whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing.

I personally don't have a horse in this race. I don't live in Texas and have no reason to go there. I don't work for any airline and don't own stock in any either. But more choices and more competition are generally good for the consumer and I am generally opposed to laws that limit choice and competition. So I say, "Away with the WA!"

 

[Ch. 12]

Currently only 20 of 32 gates are in use. W/o Wright new gates will come on-line up to the max w/o changing the master plan. That is unnecessary new capacity, when the airport were all the cites have invested has 30 open gates.

[post="276236"][/post]​

I can guarantee that there won't be an exodus from DFW to DAL (feel free to quote me on this if the WA is ever repealed) but if the other 12 gates are utilized at DAL, this would be new activity. Aren't the 30 open gates at DFW "unneccesary new capacity"?! Despite your attempt to sound logical or unbiased, your argument is hugely biased towards protecting DFW and its 73% occupant, AMR.

 

[air_guy]

Pssst, Air Guy. DAL IS on the west side of downtown Dallas. Thanks for the cool map letting us know.

[post="276243"][/post]​

My bad I meant east .... but my point is pretty obvious

 

[air_guy]

I can guarantee that there won't be an exodus from DFW to DAL (feel free to quote me on this if the WA is ever repealed) but if the other 12 gates are utilized at DAL, this would be new activity. Aren't the 30 open gates at DFW "unneccesary new capacity"?! Despite your attempt to sound logical or unbiased, your argument is hugely biased towards protecting DFW and its 73% occupant, AMR.

[post="276273"][/post]​

Guarantee based on what? Your crystal ball? AA already has a plans to move flights to DAL. The new terminal was planned under the assumption that DAL would stay restricted as it was intended 30 years ago. Otherwise no one would have invested in DFW terminal D. Because my arguments defend one position it does not mean that they are biased towards anything. For that matter I would say that anyone supporting the repeal is in favor of WN and its potential 70% occupancy of DAL. I don't care about WN. This should not be a airline issue. Unfortunately what is a city planning issue has been converted by Southwest in a battle of airlines to get public sympathy which is non-sense. As a resident of uptown Dallas I loath the idea of more Southwest or any other airline flights above my home!

 

[mrman]

Ok I will post facts. I was wrong with the size of the metro areas but still, with WN flying out of HOU, they have not created the traffic stimulation they claim they can create at DAL. The truth is that DFW is bigger and better gateway than IAH. It has contributed signifiacntly to the growth of DFW sorrounding communities. If DFW already has plenty of space, why would the cities create more airport competition. Combining what Delta has left and the new terminal D that are more than 30 gates that will be unused at DFW. If DAL opens up to long haul that number will increase and all the sorrounding communities will suffer. Who do you expect is going to fill those gates. DFW is not a private company taking bets on behalf of random stockholders, it is a Joint-venture beetween all the sorrounding cities. If DFW collapses all the sorrounding cities but Dallas will suffer. Property taxes will sky rocket in sorounding areas. Just so Southwest can make more money. It is going to screw up the same people Soutwest is "trying" to benefit. Since I have to post facts I am attaching the realtive location of DFW/DAL and IAH/HOU. The situation in Houston is so different. The airport may be closer to downtown but is on the other side. If DAL was on the west side of Downtown Dallas I couldnt care less about Wright repeal. DAL and DFW are too darn close. It does not make sense too have two airports so close competing.
View attachment 2996
View attachment 2997

[post="276110"][/post]​

I guess Oakland should be closed as it is within 10 miles from SFO. I guess longbeach should be closed, what about SNA and Burbank?

Also should we close FTW Alliance. Note it was built after Wright. Should AA close their maintenance base and move to DFW?

 

[Ch. 12]

Guarantee based on what? Your crystal ball? AA already has a plans to move flights to DAL. The new terminal was planned under the assumption that DAL would stay restricted as it was intended 30 years ago. Otherwise no one would have invested in DFW terminal D. Because my arguments defend one position it does not mean that they are biased towards anything. For that matter I would say that anyone supporting the repeal is in favor of WN and its potential 70% occupancy of DAL. I don't care about WN. This should not be a airline issue. Unfortunately what is a city planning issue has been converted by Southwest in a battle of airlines to get public sympathy which is non-sense. As a resident of uptown Dallas I loath the idea of more Southwest or any other airline flights above my home!

[post="276286"][/post]​

Yes...my crystal ball called history. AA ADDED flights to DAL when Legend was around...didn't MOVE flights. If they compete for NEW traffic (again...the demand will not remain the same...this is simple market stimulation), they will not subract flights from DFW.

And let's stop with the more flights issue already. There is a huge issue that is just a through-ticketing issue. Why can't WN sell a ticket to CA or FL...that won't add any flights? Artificial limitations are no longer necessary and the sky will not fall if the WA is repealed.