New Legislation To Eradicate Wright/shelby

[Ch. 12]

The following is excerpted from an interview with American Airlines CEO Gerard Arpey in the April 1, 2005 edition of the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram:

Arpey said it would be better to ban all commercial flights at Love Field. That would force Southwest to move to D/FW, he said and guarantee the larger airport's stability. "That's as much of an option as a full repeal," he said.

[post="275797"][/post]​

I think we have bigger problems if DFW is still unstable. I hardly think that is an issue 30+ years after its inception but I do thank AArpey for a truly objective point of view.

 

[OPNLguy]

>>>Ch. 12 and OPNLguy, where are you two getting the idea that some people want Southwest to close Love Field and move everything to DFW? That is ludicrous, and no one has suggested it, so stop wasting your time arguing against a nonexistent point of view.

The following is excerpted from an interview with American Airlines CEO Gerard Arpey in the April 1, 2005 edition of the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram:

Arpey said it would be better to ban all commercial flights at Love Field. That would force Southwest to move to D/FW, he said and guarantee the larger airport's stability. "That's as much of an option as a full repeal," he said.

[post="275797"][/post]​

Funny how AArpey's comments were made on April Fool's Day... They're classic FUD-mongering. No way the City of Dallas tosses the baby with the bathwater by tossing the corporate/GA revenue aspect of Love, not in their financial state.

Although the idea to have Southwest move all it's flights out of Love (irrespective of whether Love closes) to DFW might not have been discussed much on this particular board, it has been on other boards, particularly www.airliners.net. The subject also seems to come up as a "defense" to the observation that the "deal" that DFW was offering on gates wasn't really such a great deal after all. When someone mentions the large -minimum- number of gates involved and how SWA wouldn't start up the number of flights normally associated with that minimum number of gates, the response is "Oh, that's moving -all- of Southwest's operation from Love to DFW. There are -plenty- of folks out there that erroneously think that replacing Delta's former DFW operation with Southwest's Love operation is a common-sense "plug-and-play" kind of deal, but that's overly simplistic and ignores the points I made earlier. Moving to DFW -is- a stupid idea.

 

[air_guy]

It's simply amazing how the pro-Wright contingent continue to parrot "Southwest has a monopoly! Southwest has a monopoly!" without thinking the issue through and telling the full story...

It's absolutely true that Southwest does indeed have 97% of today's traffic at Love. A large part of that is due to the fact that no other airline in their right mind (other than CoEx) wants to come into to Love and have to put up with the inherent restrictions upon where they can fly, and on top of that, having to compete with Southwest's lower cost structure.

What the pro-Wright folks don't want folks to realize is that Southwest's current 97% (PRE-repeal) is not a future value POST-repeal. Common sense and some basic math should indicate that with POST-repeal competition at Love, Southwest's share relative to the total would DECREASE from that 97%. In DFW's study (released 5/10), even it mentioned Southwest with an estimated 201 of 362 daily flights, or 55%. I think the only reasons the pro-Wright folks bleat out 97% at every opportunity is to (1) make Southwest look like some greedy corporate entity that wants it all (we don't), and (2) that the current 97% makes AA's current 75%-80% at DFW seem reasonable by comparison. The Love Master Plan mentions Southwest with 20 of the 32 permissible gates, or 62.5%, so if Southwest was so interested in keeping its "monopoly" why would it be in favor of supporting something that was going to reduce it? Moreover, if the pro-Wright contingent is -so- concerned about monopolies, why aren't they thrilled that Southwest is trying to do something to reduce that 97%.

[post="275735"][/post]​

I agree with the DAL restrictions scaring away competititon, but scared of Southwest? AA competes with Soutwest in STL local market just fine. A significant portion of WN's low costs at DAL come from DAL itself in terms of low rent, low landing fees and low congestion (that will go away) The problem is that to compete effectivey you need some scale. Soutwest BTW has 21 of the 32 gates, and of the remaining 11 some are allocated already which guarantees fragmented competition. I still don't understand why if the "against wright people" use the pro-consumer argument, why do they worry about the master plan being revised. AA alone will need 10 to 15 gates to defend its local market share. Lets put as many gates in DAL as possible so every airline that want to fly there can.

 

[Ch. 12]

I agree with the DAL restrictions scaring away competititon, but scared of Southwest? AA competes with Soutwest in STL local market just fine. A significant portion of WN's low costs at DAL come from DAL itself in terms of low rent, low landing fees and low congestion (that will go away) The problem is that to compete effectivey you need some scale. Soutwest BTW has 21 of the 32 gates, and of the remaining 11 some are allocated already which guarantees fragmented competition. I still don't understand why if the "against wright people" use the pro-consumer argument, why do they worry about the master plan being revised. AA alone will need 10 to 15 gates to defend its local market share. Lets put as many gates in DAL as possible so every airline that want to fly there can.

[post="275876"][/post]​

Who of the "against wright people" has been against master plan revisions? Go for it!!

 

[swflyer]

The problem, which was recognized by people 50 years ago, is that Love Field cannot handle a large amount of traffic. That's why DFW was built! DFW was built as a very large airport because the intent was to close Love Field to commercial aviation.

[post="275763"][/post]​

I'll keep posting this link occasionally, so everyone can get their fact straight. <_<

FightWright.org

Love Field was scheduled to be closed because the CAB didn't want to fund two airports in the DFW region, any longer.

Fast forward twenty years, and Southwest Airlines points out that it wasn't part of the DFW planning party, 'cuz Braniff and Trans-Texas were suing just to keep Southwest from existing.

SIX years after DFW opened, it got a local senator to pass protectionist legislation to guard against a 10 plane airline, across town. <_<

Fast forward another TWENTY FIVE years and DFW, one of the busiest airports in the world and home to the largest airline in the world, is screaming to keep it's protection in place. :huh:

 

[swflyer]

I agree with the DAL restrictions scaring away competititon, but scared of Southwest? AA competes with Soutwest in STL local market just fine. A significant portion of WN's low costs at DAL come from DAL itself in terms of low rent, low landing fees and low congestion (that will go away) The problem is that to compete effectivey you need some scale. Soutwest BTW has 21 of the 32 gates, and of the remaining 11 some are allocated already which guarantees fragmented competition. I still don't understand why if the "against wright people" use the pro-consumer argument, why do they worry about the master plan being revised. AA alone will need 10 to 15 gates to defend its local market share. Lets put as many gates in DAL as possible so every airline that want to fly there can.

[post="275876"][/post]​

VERY SIMPLY, Southwest agreed to the Love Field Master Plan in concert with the neighborhood's wishes for maximum service to the airport. Southwest has "dibs" on seven more gates, but nothing is set in concrete, yet.

American can say, again and again, that they want to flood Love Field with flights, but they've said this before and have come and gone, in spite of their signature on the DFW Bond Covenants. American is welcome in the available gates, and to abide by the Master Plan, just as they would at any other airport which had one.

In other words, to turn your argument back on yourself, why does the Master Plan have to change to accomodate American???? Remember, Arpey said flying at Love Field is bad for the environment.

 

[FWAAA]

VERY SIMPLY, Southwest agreed to the Love Field Master Plan in concert with the  neighborhood's wishes for maximum service to the airport.  Southwest has "dibs" on seven more gates, but nothing is set in concrete, yet.

American can say, again and again, that they want to flood Love Field with flights, but they've said this before and have come and gone, in spite of their signature on the DFW Bond Covenants.  American is welcome in the available gates, and to abide by the Master Plan, just as they would at any other airport which had one.

In other words, to turn your argument back on yourself, why does the Master Plan have to change to accomodate American????  Remember, Arpey said flying at Love Field is bad for the environment. 

[post="275885"][/post]​

I think Arpey's constant bleating about how awful life would be without Wright is pathetic. DFW and DAL can coexist just like HOU and IAH.

That said, the MP was crafted with the assumption that Congress would not repeal the artificial limits on DAL.

Now that Congress might, the MP must be revisited not just for AA, but for all airlines who might want to serve DAL from far-flung cities. DAL once had 55 gates, and there's no reason (other than the arbitrary "The MP limits it to 32") that DAL can't have 55 gates in the future.

I'm on WN's side here; but I have to ask: Why do so many people oppose relaxing the MP's restrictions on gates? What are you afraid of, WN??

 

[JS]

Who of the "against wright people" has been against master plan revisions? Go for it!!

[post="275877"][/post]​

The "horse's mouth", Southwest Airlines itself, wants to keep the Master Plan intact. :down:

 

[FWAAA]

The "horse's mouth", Southwest Airlines itself, wants to keep the Master Plan intact. :down:

[post="275924"][/post]​

Exactly. WN's hands aren't completely clean here - its desire to stifle any talk of construction of new gate space (by revisiting the Master Plan) is almost as bad as AA's whining about the North Texas economic devastation it predicts would follow repeal of the WA.

Kill the Wright Amendment and allow as many as 55 gates again.

 

[swflyer]

I'm on WN's side here; but I have to ask: Why do so many people oppose relaxing the MP's restrictions on gates? What are you afraid of, WN??

[post="275895"][/post]​

Personally. I'm not against more gates at Love. Southwest has determined it would make less money operating from both airports, if American is foolish enough to begin the split operation game in Dallas, more power. And more seats for more folks.

To directly answer your question, the people living around Love Field are the "so many people" opposed to more gates. None of them seem to be posting here (where is the AA guy who said he lived nearby??)

To be perfectly clear, I just want the Wright recinded (I have family in Dallas and live in Chicago, oh, and I'm partial to the size of my profit sharing check )

 

[air_guy]

I'll keep posting this link occasionally, so everyone can get their fact straight. <_<

Is just WN's side of the story no 'straight facts'

FightWright.org

Love Field was scheduled to be closed because the CAB didn't want to fund two airports in the DFW region, any longer.

Fast forward twenty years, and Southwest Airlines points out that it wasn't part of the DFW planning party, 'cuz Braniff and Trans-Texas were suing just to keep Southwest from existing.

Still the cities have the right to decide which airport are to operate. At that time Dallas had decided to close Love, but it was with litigation that WN was able to stay in DAL.


SIX years after DFW opened, it got a local senator to pass protectionist legislation to guard against a 10 plane airline, across town. <_<

Nope ... legislation against any clown who thought could start an airline at DAL taking advantage of its proximity to Downtown Dallas and circunventing Dallas agreements. Right now that clown in Kelly but in the 70's WN was not the issue, it was the airport's existance itself.


Fast forward another TWENTY FIVE years and DFW, one of the busiest airports in the world and home to the largest airline in the world, is screaming to keep it's protection in place. :huh:

[post="275881"][/post]​

Because DAL is too conveniently located. That is not even the case with Hobby wich is South of Houston vs IAH at the North side . At least there, the airports are spread. In the Metroplex pretty much half of the people have to drive past Love to go to DFW ... is that that hard to understand? Under those circumstances American will have no choice but to move asignificant number of flights to DAL. It may cost more but the passengers lost to DAL not necessarily because of price but because of LOCATION is far larger.

 

[Ch. 12]

Because DAL is too conveniently located. That is not even the case with Hobby wich is South of Houston vs IAH at the North side . At least there, the airports are spread. In the Metroplex pretty much half of the people have to drive past Love to go to DFW ... is that that hard to understand? Under those circumstances American will have no choice but to move asignificant number of flights to DAL. It may cost more but the passengers lost to DAL not necessarily because of price but because of LOCATION is far larger.

[post="275981"][/post]​

Seeing as 70% of AA's traffic through DFW is just that...through...they will not have to shift much, if anything. And you know as well as I that the area around DFW has grown significantly that it presents quite a passenger base in itself (a base that would have to drive past DFW to get to DAL). No...you have been convinced by the AA argument that is NOT based on fact. I have seen the reports..."WN will only have connecting pax through DAL...WN will more than triple its flights out of DAL...WN supports no change to the MP). All of these are absurdly false and so is the notion that DFW will suffer. AA may "suffer", but the consumer, the city, the airports, and the industry will benefit.

Again...DFW has come a long way since Jan 1974. Their traffic has more than tripled in the past 20 years. Unfortunately, with AA holding over 1/2 of the gates and flying 3/4 of the flights, no competitor can ever break into that fortress and that ultimately has lead to higher fares and a detriment to the industry. If both airports were functioning, traffic would not shift...it would grow. MORE people would fly...it won't be that simply the same number will fly but flock to old DAL. Dallas is currently the 7th largest Metro area and its growth rate since 2000 alone is 2nd best in the nation. They are the only city in the metro area in the 11 (with the exception of PHL) that have only one airport that functions to respectable markets. I hardly think the area or any airport is in jeopardy if we finally cut the umilical cord that has allowed DFW and AA to flourish in an uncompetitive market.

 

[ngneer]

In trying to sort some things out, I found this summary of the 1968 bond ordinance made by the Supreme Court of Texas:

In 1968, the cities of Fort Worth and Dallas executed a concurrent bond ordinance and a contract to establish a regional airport, Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport. Their agreements limited subsequent interstate flights out of local airports such as Love Field Airport in Dallas. The cities amended their agreement in the late 1970s to allow "turn around flights" to states adjacent to Texas from Love Field. At about the same time, the Wright Amendment was passed incorporating many of the same terms into federal law. See Act of Feb. 15, 1980, Pub. L. No. 96-192, § 29&copy;, 94 Stat. 28 (1980) (amended 1997). However, Congress enacted the Shelby Amendment in 1997, which eased some of the restrictions of the Wright Act. See Act of Oct. 27, 1997, Pub. L. No. 105-66, § 337, 111 Stat. 1447 (1997).

Link to Texas Supreme Court decision

Note that, according to the Supreme Court of Texas, the bond ordinance agreement of 1968 didn't include closure Love Field, only the restriction future flights. And the following is from the Love Field website:

November 12, 1968
Dallas and Fort Worth establish a bond agreement to build Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport -

Regional Airport Concurrent Bond Ordinance. D/FW Airport Use Agreement: Agreements were obtained from all eight CAB certificated air carriers to move all flights to the new regional airport. Southwest Airlines began its intrastate service, later, and subsequently notified the Airport Board that it would remain at Love Field.

The point is that nowhere can I find any official reference to a decision or attempt by the City of Dallas to ever close Love Field, so I think those who are suggesting that Love Field was supposed to be closed in favor of DFW are wrong.

 

[KCFlyer]

Because DAL is too conveniently located. That is not even the case with Hobby wich is South of Houston vs IAH at the North side . At least there, the airports are spread. In the Metroplex pretty much half of the people have to drive past Love to go to DFW ... is that that hard to understand? Under those circumstances American will have no choice but to move asignificant number of flights to DAL. It may cost more but the passengers lost to DAL not necessarily because of price but because of LOCATION is far larger.

[post="275981"][/post]​

So...AA would find the additional costs associated with split operations to be worth capturing the fraction of the O&D traffic that is more convenient to Love Field? I'd venture to guess that the bulk of the population in the metroplex is to the north and WEST of Love field, meaning that far more folks would have to travel past DFW to get to their O&D flight out of DAL. Because that's pretty much all that AA could hope to do out of DAL - O&D. Unlesss they are foolish enough to try to operate two hubs in the same city.

 

[air_guy]

So...AA would find the additional costs associated with split operations to be worth capturing the fraction of the O&D traffic that is more convenient to Love Field? I'd venture to guess that the bulk of the population in the metroplex is to the north and WEST of Love field, meaning that far more folks would have to travel past DFW to get to their O&D flight out of DAL. Because that's pretty much all that AA could hope to do out of DAL - O&D. Unlesss they are foolish enough to try to operate two hubs in the same city.

[post="276020"][/post]​

I can tell you as a fact. AA will move a significant number of flights to DAL if Wright gets repealed and subsequntly the master plan gets modified. If Fortworth wants to build and Airport that is more conveniently located than DFW, the airlines will add flights there as well. ITs how it works. You can not let that airport proliferation weaken the air trasnportation of a region. Denver, Austin and others understood that. Why do you think DFW belonging to a smaller metropolitan area than Houston, is one of the largest. Scale. If Wright gets repealed, in time DFW will move less pax than IAH.