New book about AA’s trip through BK out soon.

[OldGuy@AA]

Terry's a fairly reasonable guy and not one to shill for management, so maybe you should read it for a fairly neutral view vs. what the company and union were feeding you as propaganda.

Perhaps you don't want to read it because you might come to the conclusion that had the unions worked with management, the bankruptcy wouldn't have been necessary, you'd still have your pensions today, and Tom Horton would never have become president let alone CEO?...

Nope, far better to keep your head in the sand, old guy. That way you'll remain uneducated on what happened and be bound to repeat history over and over. The company is counting on that.

As usual you have no idea what you're talking about. My union did work with the company. The company claimed Tulsa (Where I work) became a $500 Million profit center. What did management do? They pi$$ed the money away and then ran the contract work off. Meanwhile rewarding themselves with bonuses and other perks. Yeah it was the unions' fault. I am amazed at how a supposedly educated person (as you claim to be) can be so narrow minded and short sighted. You saw what the pirates in HDQ told you to see. I lived it and am still living it. You can stick your revisionist history where the sun don't shine. My head's in the sand? Your head is up your behind. Go worship Arpey and all the other corporate pirates somewhere else. We were there and saw it first hand. We weren't under someone's desk at HDQ like you were.

 

[NYer]

The reason I say most of the blame lies with management is because almost all non-management employees were very upset when they found out about the bonuses. Executives tried for years to explain that the bonuses were justified but the rank and file never agreed and stayed mad. Whether or not the anger of the rank and file was justified does not matter much. They were mad and the company knew it.

That means management knew that either their turnaround plan had to work or it would be bankruptcy. They created the anger and they let it simmer. They chose to keep the bonus plan going as it was knowing that by doing so, they were boxed in to making the turnaround work with no further help from labor. That is why I think most of it is their fault although again there was a lot of blame to go around.

If the company thought for a minute, which they should have, that they might need more concessions, then they should have revisited the bonus program.

Aside from being a morally corrupt action, considering the circumstances, the bonuses had little to do with what happened from 2003 to 2011.

 

[AANOTOK]

Terry's a fairly reasonable guy and not one to shill for management, so maybe you should read it for a fairly neutral view vs. what the company and union were feeding you as propaganda.

Perhaps you don't want to read it because you might come to the conclusion that had the unions worked with management, the bankruptcy wouldn't have been necessary, you'd still have your pensions today, and Tom Horton would never have become president let alone CEO?...

Nope, far better to keep your head in the sand, old guy. That way you'll remain uneducated on what happened and be bound to repeat history over and over. The company is counting on that.

You are not serious are you? I doesn't matter which route AA took. It doesn't matter if they were the most profitable airline in the world. It doesn't matter who was at the helm. Corporate America, their crooked BOD's, and the greedy CEO's are making sure of that all across America. Take a look E, pensions are a thing of the past and have been for some time.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

You are not serious are you? I doesn't matter which route AA took. It doesn't matter if they were the most profitable airline in the world. It doesn't matter who was at the helm. Corporate America, their crooked BOD's, and the greedy CEO's are making sure of that all across America. Take a look E, pensions are a thing of the past and have been for some time.

Good point buddy. And we will never know how much of our pensions we'll actually see. At any point in time the "New AA" could make another BK filing and dump it. Right now it's frozen but not protected. I honestly think they'll dump it when too many of us retire and they have to fund some of the Billions it is missing. Even if they don't dump it we have to realize (Even if the resident genius doesn't want to admit it) that the pension we are going to receive is basically on 1990s earnings since we took massive pay cuts and were still under those pay cuts when it was frozen. But management types don't think we are smart enough to figure this stuff out. The TWU also claims they saved the pension. They saved it for the old timers who got to retire and actually get it. When we go there might not be any money in it. Of course the government could change the laws and force companies to fund pensions first and not allow them to liquidate them or dump them in bankruptcy. (They do this for executives of course) But that would limit the amount CEOs like Parker can steal because they couldn't take theirs right off the top. I have no problem with CEOs making good money. I do have a problem when they make it by giving us less.

 

[Kev3188]

All the more reason for labor to stop relying pensions, and instead demand higher fixed contributions/matches to DC plans instead.

 

[gulfcoast1]

Aside from being a morally corrupt action, considering the circumstances, the bonuses had little to do with what happened from 2003 to 2011.

I am not saying that it did. I am saying that the company's turnaround plan/s during that time became the only option other than bankruptcy because of employee anger over the bonuses. Management had the choice to reduce/alter/eliminate the bonuses and possibly leave the door open for future voluntary concessions or change nothing with the bonuses and leave bankruptcy as the only option which is what happened.

 

[NYer]

I am not saying that it did. I am saying that the company's turnaround plan/s during that time became the only option other than bankruptcy because of employee anger over the bonuses. Management had the choice to reduce/alter/eliminate the bonuses and possibly leave the door open for future voluntary concessions or change nothing with the bonuses and leave bankruptcy as the only option which is what happened.

The bonuses had nothing to do with anything that happened after 2003. Our situation was dictated by market and industry changes precipitated by the other legacy airlines.

 

[gulfcoast1]

The bonuses had nothing to do with anything that happened after 2003. Our situation was dictated by market and industry changes precipitated by the other legacy airlines.

The bonuses most certainly contributed to the bankruptcy filing by removing any possibility of voluntary concessions from the table. There was no way the unions were going to agree to voluntary concessions after eight years of anger over the bonuses. Are you trying to say the unions did not care about the bonuses because I recall they cared a lot and they were, like, really really mad?

 

[NYer]

The bonuses most certainly contributed to the bankruptcy filing by removing any possibility of voluntary concessions from the table. There was no way the unions were going to agree to voluntary concessions after eight years of anger over the bonuses. Are you trying to say the unions did not care about the bonuses because I recall they cared a lot and they were, like, really really mad?

Of course they cared, but the bankruptcy was caused by market conditions, industry consolidations and a race to the bottom by other legacy airlines. The bankruptcy would have been inevitable, whether we were angry or happy.

 

[737823]

All the more reason for labor to stop relying pensions, and instead demand higher fixed contributions/matches to DC plans instead.

Pensions seems to work well for AFSCME, AFGE, SEIU, AFT, NEA and others that bleed our government and related agencies dry.

I suppose you are right but then again:

UT--

Of all the items the company was asking for in each of the proposed concessionary agreements, the *one* thing everyone-junior, senior, 'tween- I spoke with were amenable to was the 401k match. NW would have frozen the pension anyway, so the choice was either the match, or the IAMNP plan. NO ONE wanted the IAM plan, yet it was the one thing the IAM fought hardest for. Not scope, not wages, their plan...

And just how much will retiring folks get from the IAM plan? No one can tell you! The officers in DL143 have no idea how much the multiplier will be..... :angry:

Josh

 

[eolesen]

You are not serious are you? I doesn't matter which route AA took. It doesn't matter if they were the most profitable airline in the world. It doesn't matter who was at the helm. Corporate America, their crooked BOD's, and the greedy CEO's are making sure of that all across America. Take a look E, pensions are a thing of the past and have been for some time.

Without a doubt new employees prefer the portability of a 401K, but I don't think you'll find too many employees who had their DB plan frozen who'd say no to negotiating away something else to see it restored. There's at least one group of legacy airline employees who still have a non-frozen pension today, and it's largely because they worked to save it during a restructuring outside of bankruptcy.

Nobody's forcing you to buy the book or read it. Those willing to consider other opinions than their own or question what they've been led to believe by the union or even by the company might want to do so.

 

[WeAAsles]

All the more reason for labor to stop relying pensions, and instead demand higher fixed contributions/matches to DC plans instead.

Kev if you went back to Members who retired back in the 70’s you’d find that they very much enjoyed their retirements with little to no concern.

You’re advocacy would have been better served by fighting for Laws preventing companies from being legally able to shirk their responsibilities to funding their DBP’s first rather than last.

A Company is a profit producer since it sells a product. That product hopefully will always generate a reasonable profit to invest in both the employees and growing the business.

It will never fail to amaze me how Corporations have convinced the young ones that Pension is a dirty 4 letter word or something. Mind boggling.

I for one very much miss my continuing growth Defined Benefit Pension. (No one gives a chit anyway I guess)

 

[WeAAsles]

Without a doubt new employees prefer the portability of a 401K, but I don't think you'll find too many employees who had their DB plan frozen who'd say no to negotiating away something else to see it restored. There's at least one group of legacy airline employees who still have a non-frozen pension today, and it's largely because they worked to save it during a restructuring outside of bankruptcy.

Nobody's forcing you to buy the book or read it. Those willing to consider other opinions than their own or question what they've been led to believe by the union or even by the company might want to do so.

TWU did negotiate outside of BK to keep the DBP and that lasted (appreciated by me) almost another full decade.

In the AMR Bankruptcy that option to negotiate a solution to keep the (Dramatically underfunded) Pensions was not offered.

And again as much as I wish I still had my Pension continuing on it would be foolish to accept it if there are no laws to prevent the Company from not even bothering to contribute to it.

Essentially E why would I want a negotiated benefit that was kind of a bunch of BS anyway?

 

[Kev3188]

Maybe, but since that genie's long out of the bottle, the next best thing to do is to advocate against deferred compensation. Workers deserve to get their money now.

 

[737823]

Kev if you went back to Members who retired back in the 70’s you’d find that they very much enjoyed their retirements with little to no concern.

You’re advocacy would have been better served by fighting for Laws preventing companies from being legally able to shirk their responsibilities to funding their DBP’s first rather than last.

A Company is a profit producer since it sells a product. That product hopefully will always generate a reasonable profit to invest in both the employees and growing the business.

It will never fail to amaze me how Corporations have convinced the young ones that Pension is a dirty 4 letter word or something. Mind boggling.

I for one very much miss my continuing growth Defined Benefit Pension. (No one gives a chit anyway I guess)

Weez as I stated above had you taken the sanitation test and worked for the city you would still have a rich cushy DB! And you could plan out your sprint for the final years to choke it and get maximum benefits.

Josh