Negative Air

[mbmbbost]

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On 6/22/2003 8:39:20 PM sdavis29 wrote:


but why are we still losing money after all the cuts.
the fl market seems to be the same...full 757/321. mind you this is now summer...flts last night inbound (sat night ) were all full.

so if LF is 90-100%,cuts are in place plus 5%....and still the flts lose money,
seems like only two logical choices....raise the fares or stop flying losing flts....




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I was just checking BOS/Florida fares. While the lowest are only in the $220+ range for most destinations, that''s still higher than they''ve been at this time of year for quite a while, and the service is worse than ever. Couldn''t US, in theory, make money on these fares with full nonstops? I think that could be done, if things were managed correctly. US has lost lots of customers by forcing them to connect on these routes. Smaller markets should get the connecting flights (fewer of them if need be), or higher fares. Pulling out of all the big, but competitive (and perhaps for right now money losing) markets, or just raising fares, rather than figuring out a way to compete head to head, isn''t going to do much good over the long run.

 

[PITbull]

Marky,

I keep doing your job for ya. As far as the present recognition program, I am against what is in place, and you know that.

You speak of profit sharing, outside of the stock. In our contracts, we could only pick one; either profit sharing or stock...this was the summer concessions. For the Winter concession, their is profit sharing for "lump sum 2007 and 2008, HOWEVER, our AFA consultants analyized the profit sharing piece and said that the profit sharing piece is "capped" (unlike other airlines who have profit sharing like LUV), and they said for this reason, the profit "lump sum" to our group would return very little or nothing, and they told us not to bet on any lump sum return in those latter years.

So, again profit sharing is moot.

With regard to the three hour bank time for f/as. Pilots have a The bank...its called a negative back. They use it for the purpose of timing out. This bank would be for ALL f/as block holder and reserve alike. Because no one knows when and who will use this time, you still need the same number of reserves you have today. There still will be those who won't bank time. Some f/as have a hard time getting there time in and are always receiving "low block" or low hours. Management allows a window of three hours for f/as, before they cite them for high flying presently. Since this has been past practice, then why not have them bank that time, until they need to use it. Perhaps, they can use the bank to get out of time one month when they have too much going on in one month. So you see, it all should equal out for time. These are just gross ideas, and I am sure if anything came out of this, there would be restrictions.

With regard to going to meet at CCY and Dave. Trust me, if they knew who I was, they would shoot ME and then YOU for being with me.

 

[Twicebaked]

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On 6/21/2003 8:17:12 AM MarkMyWords wrote:

Pity...

What are your ideas for improving revenue? Cutting costs? Boosting employee morale (besides the dead horse 5% war deferal)? Oh yeah......I forgot......that isn''t your job, that is managements.
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Markmywords,
That was ME that said that not PitBull. And yes, IT is NOT our jobs. It is your''s. If you are not managment than I have 10 fingers on each hand. You reak of managment.

 

[Twicebaked]

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On 6/22/2003 3:09:02 PM MarkMyWords wrote:

Pity...

As for Flight Attendants.....my question to you would be how would the union feel about Flight Attendants flying over their option? It was my understanding that the union frowned upon F/A's overflying because it took time away from junior/reserve F/A's. If that has changed, or is something they would be willing to change, then I am with you 100%.
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Mark,
If you could here all the the swear words coming out of my mouth right now....
How dare you say something like that!!!!! First off, let someone else come to your office and take some of your time away. Did you not understand that flight attendants do that now all it does IS TAKE MONEY OUT OF THE JUNIOR PEOPLE'S POCKETS AND CAUSE MANY MANY MANY MORE FURLOUGH'S. DON'T YOU EVER EVER MAKE A SUGGESTION THAT WOULD CREATE MORE JOB LOSES. Portion deleted by moderator.​

 

[MarkMyWords]

sdavis -

Good question. I wish I knew why we were still losing money after all the cuts. And you are right about either raise the fares or stop flying the routes....that is what we have been doing. That is why we severly cut the service to Florida.

Pity -

With regards to the recognition program, are you talking about the new program that they just announced?

With regards to the profit sharing, I was not aware of all the details of the program, and if your info is correct, then I agree....moot point / no benefit.

Regarding overflying, if you cap the overfly at 3 hours, great. I agree that if such a plan would be put in place, there would definitly be a lot of details and restrictions to work out. I like the theory.

As for getting into CCY......I guess we will have dress up like characters from Austin Powers to get in. How would you look as a mini-me? LOL

Twicebaked -

1. PitBull and I have had the same discussions previously regarding who's job is who's. I was just fending off anyones response of who's job is whose.

2. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am management. I just have different views and opinions. Get over it.

3. Before you go off half baked, look and see whose idea it was to offer the overfly and comp bank. I was making a point that I thought it was the union that would not allow overflying and that would need to be changed. I am not advocating the elmination of any jobs, in fact if you scroll up, I do feel that we have cut to many jobs.

FYI, these were just rough ideas that Pity and I were tossing around as ways to allow YOU to take a day off when you need it. The challenge is to do things like this with minimal cost to the company. Do you have any bright ideas of how to improve revenue? Cut costs? Improve employee morale? Do you have anything constructive to offer to this conversation???

 

[USAirBoyA330]

PITBull:

OK...overfly....Oh goody. The way I look at it, the company AND AFA are responsible for F/A''s that overfly their option. I have asked repeatedly for this to be stopped and still years later?.....nothing.
You know why F/A''s overfly? Because it''s an option for them to do so. Why don''t we just lock them out at their option? Oh yes, I got the excuse about how we can fly over our option by how much "under fly" we accrued during the month. OK, how much is that at maximum usually?....1-2 hours? Great.....so if your on the 95 hour flight option you can fly 97 hours. If your on the 105, you can fly 107 MAX.
If a F/A calls up to go on the Bid Sheet or take a trip, then scheduling should just say, I am sorry NO OVERFLY....C L I C K HANG UP
That would be a very simple solution to bring F/A''s back too work and let people get their hours in! But AFA doesn''t want to do that! I was told way back by one of our AFA leaders that AFA can''t go to In-flight and request another AFA member be disciplined for overfly. That''s not their job.
So, AFA and the F/A group sit around and watch fellow F/A''s take time away and jobs away from each other when the solution is SO simple. Take the option away from the F/A group to overfly. Right now scheduling couldn''t care less is you fly 140 hours....great...fine with them!
And the supervisors are overwhelmed as it is. Why should they have to run after someone for overflying when it shouldn''t even be an option?
It just doesn''t make sense why they don''t LOCK people out when they have reached a certain point. If F/A''s stopped overflying we could bring a bunch of people back. But your smart....you know that and I know that. No one seems to care.

 

[PITbull]

USFlyboyA330,

Here is an epiphany for you:

First, the main reason for furloughs is BECUASE THE F/A RATIFIED A SUCK ASS AGREEMENT IN THE SUMMER THAT DELETED THE "NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE". Let me just guess how you voted for that in PHL?????

Second, if a f/a gets disciplined for overfly, and it is a legitimate overfly, then you best believe THIS UNION WILL NOT DEFEND OVERFLY. PERIOD.

We will go in with the f/a as representatives of the union and witnesses, BUT THER WOULD AND COULD NOT BE A GRIEVANCE FILED, as it is contractually illegal to overfly. The reason the company is targeting this now is because they will be responsible to fund the "pension" for the f/as, therefore if a f/a is flying over, they increase their FAE, and the company will have to pay a bigger contribution to that f/a when calculating their FAE. Get it?

So, if you think folks are getting away with it THEY ARE NOT IN PITTSBURGH, REST ASSURED ON THAT. This discipline falls under "operational" and they could get terminated right out the door just like under fly. As AFA, We don't focus on the issue of higher FAE for this f/a, our union reps focus on the simple fact THAT THESE F/AS ARE STEALING TIME FROM EVERYONE, and basically they award them selves more hours, which you can't do at any other employer you work for.

AFA sends out a list every month that comes from the company with overfly. Management is already on top of this.

 

[USAirBoyA330]

PITBull:

This is not a PERSONAL attack so lets just ratchet the freakiness down a notch. It will keep both our blood pressure levels under control.

On the "No Furlough Clause," I was sitting in the room when the AFA Attorneys and the former MEC President (the one before last) BOTH said that the "NO Furlough Clause" MEANT NOTHING and 9/11 would be interpreted as a "WAR EMERGENCY"...so in this situation...what good was it?
We were told right to our face it was such a long shot it would be in grievance for YEARS and we would most likely LOOSE. That came from AFA legal.
As for the OVERFLY.....thats my whole point PITBULL! Why all the silliness and paperwork and lists?....DRAMA
IT''S AN OPTION. Why is it possible to fly that much? The system should LOCK YOU OUT. It saves union time and $$$$...and company time and $$$ not too even have to deal with people overflying. Does that make any sense or am I just not on the same wave length? Seems like a HUGE waist of time to be chasing after these people when in fact, we could prevent it form happening to start with.

 

[PITbull]

USflyboy,

The only way the company could "lock out" the f/a is on the last one or two days of the month. Then its a little late. If you look at any given time of the month f/a over projects, and underproject all month long, that is the purpose of trip improvement cause we all on different options. If you lock them out on their first overprojection, then they may not get their time in at the end of the month, whereby then disadvantaging the f/a. So, its a fine line. What was presented to the MEC at one of the meetings, is "fining" the f/a for overfly and placing that money back into the union local. That is how it was in the 80's and somehow got changed. The MEC said that this would send a message to the f/as that we as a union wanted to take their money from them and have an excuse to place it in the union's coffers. With regard to the "furlough language", well you know what I think about that...."better for a judge to take it from us, then for the union to just hand over the jobs to management. As you can attest, the furlough language of both the pilots and f/a was the "impetus" to all that has ensued with this "business plan". THE VALUE WAS HUGE, and we got not one penny for it. Stupid AFA leaders and negotiators and AFA International legal.

So, then it was mentioned to list folks name on a board publically to embarrass f/as not to overfly. That too got shot down by the majority of the MEC.

So, PIT base and PHL monitor these occurrences and have committess that watch this. Evidently, the company now has started to focus on this as well for the above reasons I cited, and we are hearing of the discipline letters and levels placed on these habitual abusers.

 

[USAirBoyA330]

PITBULL:

Fair enough. I understood it was a fine line and thank you for explaining AFA''s position on this. However, I was sort of referring to the F/A''s that "Time Out" on the 20th of the month and then call back in time to get more hours. I know a LOT of F/A who reach their flight option on or around the 26th or 23rd. Why should they be allowed to keep flying? I guess it more pertains to reserves. I still say reserves CAN be prevented and locked out from overfly but then that opens a whole can of worms with the blockholders getting away with it.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of the fines. Boy, that would put a stop to it before you could say BOO. If I had any AFA influence (clearing my throat) I would bring it back up to the MEC and shove it through.
Well, as for the whole No Furlough thing, at that time we had MEC/AFA international and Legal saying one thing and LOCALS saying another. It was like a bad ping pong match. You didn''t know who was saying what or who to believe. Oh well...what does it matter now.

 

[PITbull]

USflyboy,

All of this matters...and these folks, subsequently, were indirectly "yanked" out of office. And for the future leaders, if they don't work for the membership, OUT THEY GO!

AFA members are not messing around any more...this is serious. WE need leaders that will WORK for the interst of the membership, and the integrity of the profession, which is losing ground, fast.

Here is the thought process that must be in the minds and hearts of AFA leadership or any union:

"when you are at the table negotiating, you do not think or should NOT care about profits or how negotiations will effect the stock price of a company, you are representing the interest of your group. Period. When you are out doing your job on the line, that is when to CARE about profits." If you don't think like that as a Union Rep or negotiator, step away from the table. If profits and stock price is on your mind as a Union Rep, then quit as a Union Rep and apply for a management job, cause that is where you belong and where you would be most effective.

In a simple analogy:

When an attorney who defends a client in court on a claim, the attorney does not focus on what a company financially can afford in a lawsuit, they only care on proving their case on behalf of their client.

The unique part of union negotiations, is that if two parties can not reach an equitable agreement, then a mediator can be brought in to "help" the sides.

 

[PITbull]

Mark,

Yes. I am talking about the Recognition Program that is in place today...I am not for that, and I do not support its concept for the very reasons I cited in the above threads. Morale is too low for that type of incentive that is inplace today to have any effect on the employee or our morale.

From the sound of Dave's message on Friday on the hotline, he's still threatening the employees. The 5% needs to be returned, but managment just won't hear of it. They have seized an opportunity to "suck dry" the employee, and they most certainly will not back up. Same with the sick policy. I believe this management's knows that they violated the agreement, but they will "milk" this and stall for as long as they can to achieve the monthy savings they get from both ALPA and AFA, by imposing this policy, and waiting for it to go to arbitration, and then sitting down, right before. I hope this will not be the case for AFA on July 1. If their is no equitable resolution on THAT day, then the pickets will go on, until the "fix" is written and in hand.

The message I was refering to on Friday is another tatic from managment to scare labor with "forced majeure" language by fabricating an event, even on a hypothetical. This is the kind of stuff I explained to you in the above threads over the weekend. They really need to stop this ASAP.

I am in favor of ALL the labor groups joining a picket to demand our 5% to stop being deducted. GIVE IT BACK. I think with that kind of pressure, they would return it. It would be a "hard sell" in the courts for this mangement to try and convince the courts that they are justified in bringing down the flights as a "force majeure" event. That I would like to witness. So, if this mangement is threatening this, I SAY "bring it on, baby".

I believe it is time for ALL of labor to do "battle" with this mangement.
Bring in the courts, bring in the public, bring in Congress....

 

[PITbull]

Well Clue,

There is no UNION abuse, here, since 9/11, check the history again. Your confused. Labor has been battered since 9/11 with furloughs and cuts and concessions in HUGE magnitude. Before 9/11, most labor groups received just a respectable wage to support their families, pay their taxes, and educate their families. Most of the "rank and file" employees were in no way going to get RICH on being an hourly wage earner. Specifically U employees, have been stripped of wages, stock losses, benefits, and pension. Let's talk about abuse....

Whether you don't believe my view is forward thinking or any kind of thinking, is flatly your opinion. Unions create a balance in our economy. When that is off kilter, in any which way, (too much union or too much management), correction will and does take place...until the equilibrium is reached again. At present, there is a drastic shift. Not one group refused to give concessions, not a one. Its now about the manner in which this management continues to "abuse" their employees; still with threats; still heavy handed; still with no regard for the employee and their efforts and sacrificing (still present). This is not in every union or every management in different unionized corporations. It just appears "union busting" tactics and stretegies to "cripple unions is just with U and is now starting to permeate outward to other companies as a viable plan to wipe out contracts, workers, and subsequently, unions. What? Did you think that we, employees, would idely sit quietly by and watch as spectators?
Really now?


Drastic situations like ours, call for drastic measures in drastic times. They may seem harsh, but it is, what it is. Balance will have to be created and achieved by a mediator, or the courts. This is now OUR reality. From the outside, you can have your opinion and they are welcomed and accepted, however, they are just opinions. The ball is already rolling to foster and achieve "balance".

 

[ClueByFour]

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when you are at the table negotiating, you do not think or should NOT care about profits or how negotiations will effect the stock price of a company, you are representing the interest of your group. Period. When you are out doing your job on the line, that is when to CARE about profits.
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That kind of thinking is what results in the kind of union abuse we have seen industrywide since 9/11.

They say that bad management leads to unionization. Overzealous unions lead back to union abuse. It''s all cyclical.

A conservative and/or pragmatic view on the unions'' part would have prevented it from happening. However, since unions are basically small bodies-politic, you very rarely see that level of sophistication in the forward looking thinking.

Of course, you don''t get that from very many airline management groups either. Southwest is the notable exception (the jury is still out on Airtran and JetBlue).

 

[ClueByFour]

Just so that we are clear: my view from the "outside" comes froms working at a place with roughly $8 billion a year in sales, and a $2-4/share dividened--and unions. Ergo--it can be done.

Of course, the difference is that the unions that represent shop and lineworkers where I work are primarily concerned with worker safety and some work rules, but generally don''t try to hit a home run in terms of featherbedding or grossly inflating the compensation of a certified or non-certified employee. Said locals and (save for our groups represented by the IAM) nationals also keep their budgets and number of "overhead" in check.

Let''s contrast that with the airline industry:

1. ALPA exists to defend the jobs and insane compensation enjoyed by high-time mainline pilots, and put the screws to everyone else. See the incredibly skewed compensation curve for pilots--it''s silly that a regional FO is paid $20k, just as silly as a guy making $350k to push a 744 across the pacific thrice a month. The curve needs to flatten, and the top end needs to come down. ALPA/APA fought this to the point of no return (and Chapter 11 in two instances). A bit of forward thinking and a bit less greed on the part of the ancient mainline types, and everyone would be happy (no scope battles, no duty of fair representation lawsuits, and a guy at a regional won''t be on food stamps).

2. The IAM--stop trying to tie the fates of unskilled labor to the backs of licensed AMTs. AMFA, from the standpoint of a craft union, is the best thing to ever happen to AMTs. A bit of foresight and not trying to simply add raw numbers (and fluff and bloat) and turn into an "industrial union," and they would not be in their current mess (at least in terms of having more and more airlines'' AMTs defect to AMFA).

3. AFA. I don''t really know where to start. It''s probably tough for a union that''s running a deficit to negotiate from a position of strength. Maybe there would not have been a deficit had the AFA stopped wasting time and money trying to assimilate the flight attendants at DL, who said no (and then appealing to the NMB, who said "what part of _No_ did you not understand?"). Millions of dollars spent trying to organize a company who, according to the AFA president herself had "maintained its union free status by keeping its wages up near the top of the industry and basically treating its employees well." (Pat Friend at the 2001 AFL-CIO convention). I''d be seriously peeved were I a dues paying member of the AFA.

And yes, I was a card-carrying UFCW member about 10 years removed. Never, never again. I will never again hitch my career expectations and the well-being of my family to the lowest common denominator.

Where you and I truly differ, all the silly bickering and "talking point" summaries aside, is that I don''t believe in "equilibrium." I believe in social darwinism. The fittests will prosper. Want to get ahead in life? Work harder or smarter. With risk comes reward, and so forth.