More,more You Can't Ever Give Enough

[Bob Owens]

And people forget that the workrules, holiday pay, OT, sick pay, etc,etc,etc, are much worse at AA and have been for a number of years. One example, the rest of the industry works 3.5 hours for 4 hours of OT, not at AA, 4 for 4 and has been that way for a long time. We have been one big concession since 1983 and the rest of the industry is finally catching up. With that said, it will take years if not decades for an AAer to catch up in terms of total compensation what other airlines have already banked over the past 22 years of our givebacks.

Another thing they used to tout as far as retirement was our higher multiplier without factoring in that we lose the first year.

Our contracts have been full of these these little loopholes.

AA/TWU would say that our mechanics are higher paid, however any mechanics hired after 1983 would expect lower liftime earnings because of the long progressions to top pay. By changing the progression from two to twelve years a mechanic could expect to earn at least $100,000 less over the twelve year period, in the meantime AA and the TWU would still claim that their mechanic top out as high as anyone else.

Cost Of B-Scale



The following is the cost of B-Scale vs how much would have been earned if hired under the pre-Bscale schedule.

Year Bscale rate Earnings Old rate Earnings Difference
1986 $10.10 $21,000 $16.75 $34840 $13,840
1987 $10.70 $22256 $17.30 $35984 $13728
1988 $11.30 $23504 $18.78 $39062 $15558
1989 $13.29 $27643 $19.58 $40726 $13083
1990 $14.74 $30659 $20.08 $41766 $11107
1991 $15.37 $31969 $20.58 $42806 $10837
1992 $17.72 $36857 $20.58 $42806 $5949
1993 $21.40 $44512 $21.40 $44512 $0
Total $84,102
In base pay alone I made $84,102 less over the period from hire to top out. In other words I worked for free the first 3.75 years. This figure does not take into account the fact that top pay has not kept up with inflation or overtime. The actual adjusted figure would be considerably higher.

 

[777 fixer]

Smarten up hammer head
:blink:
With all the give backs we gave I will have to work a lot longer also.
My 20 percent contribution to my 401 is now 3 percent. Thanks to the 17.5 percent cash back award to AArogant Airlines

You might want to "smarten" up as well. At the end of the day what is a retirement at UAL worth and what is a retirement at AA worth? In the long run who's going to work longer? Remember, the guys at UAL gave up pay and other benefits in return for the ESOP. And we all know what those ESOP shares are worth now.

Let me get this straight you useed to contribute 20% to your 401K but now only do 3% becasue of the 17.5%? That does'nt make much sense to me. Becasue of the tax advantages of a 401K that should be the last place you cut back. When I hired in AA made money hand over fist. However I leaned very quickly from co-workers who at one time worked for defunct carriers like Pan Am, Eastern etc one should plan for a rainy day. That's why I drive around in a four banger and not an SUV like a lot of my co-workers do. Or buy the expensive home etertainment centers, jet skies etc, etc.

 

[Bob Owens]

You might want to "smarten" up as well. At the end of the day what is a retirement at UAL worth and what is a retirement at AA worth? In the long run who's going to work longer? Remember, the guys at UAL gave up pay and other benefits in return for the ESOP. And we all know what those ESOP shares are worth now.

Let me get this straight you useed to contribute 20% to your 401K but now only do 3% becasue of the 17.5%? That does'nt make much sense to me. Becasue of the tax advantages of a 401K that should be the last place you cut back. When I hired in AA made money hand over fist. However I leaned very quickly from co-workers who at one time worked for defunct carriers like Pan Am, Eastern etc one should plan for a rainy day. That's why I drive around in a four banger and not an SUV like a lot of my co-workers do. Or buy the expensive home etertainment centers, jet skies etc, etc.

The lesson from Pan Am and EAL should have been "Make it while you can" Never give back, because then you will work longer for less.

By the way I drive a four banger too, just turnd 300,000 on it this morning on my way to work.

 

[MCI transplant]

Hey, what about the forced transplants?

<_< Did someone call????

 

[MCI transplant]

The lesson from Pan Am and EAL should have been "Make it while you can" Never give back, because then you will work longer for less.

By the way I drive a four banger too, just turnd 300,000 on it this morning on my way to work.

<_< Hey Bob!!! What about TWA???? Look where a 10 year freeze on our retirement has gotten us???? We're still working, (those lucky enough), to make up for those ten years, for a company that hates our guts!! And still won't have a desant retirement!!!! :angry: Whatever you do, don't go the way we have! Give up only what you most! But keep your retirement in tack no matter what the cost, or end up working tell your sixty five+ just to survive like a lot of my fellow exTWAer workers!!!!

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

777fixer, what is so great about AA's 401k plan. If the company matched dollar for dollar the money put into it, it might be a worthwhile investment. Tax free bonds are a better investment than AA's 401k plan. It is better to take the tax hit now then wait 20 years down the road when the taxation rates will be skyrocketing because of the eight years of out of control deficit spending by "Dubya's" administration and the current congress.

 

[777 fixer]

The lesson from Pan Am and EAL should have been "Make it while you can" Never give back, because then you will work longer for less.

By the way I drive a four banger too, just turnd 300,000 on it this morning on my way to work.

The lesson of Pan Am and Eastern is you had better plan for the worst. Becasue the worst may just happen.

 

[AMFAMAN]

The lesson of Pan Am and Eastern is you had better plan for the worst. Becasue the worst may just happen.

Especially with the twu working with management like they did at Pan Am. :down: :down:

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

You might want to "smarten" up as well. At the end of the day what is a retirement at UAL worth and what is a retirement at AA worth? In the long run who's going to work longer? Remember, the guys at UAL gave up pay and other benefits in return for the ESOP. And we all know what those ESOP shares are worth now.

Let me get this straight you useed to contribute 20% to your 401K but now only do 3% becasue of the 17.5%? That does'nt make much sense to me. Becasue of the tax advantages of a 401K that should be the last place you cut back. When I hired in AA made money hand over fist. However I leaned very quickly from co-workers who at one time worked for defunct carriers like Pan Am, Eastern etc one should plan for a rainy day. That's why I drive around in a four banger and not an SUV like a lot of my co-workers do. Or buy the expensive home etertainment centers, jet skies etc, etc.

The tax advantages of the 401 K dont mean jack if you need that lost income to pay your mortgage

If you think AArogant airlines is going to give you a pension when you retire you better take the early out

 

[eolesen]

If you think AArogant airlines is going to give you a pension when you retire you better take the early out

Not the wisest advice... As part of a possible GM filing for bankruptcy, all the UAW folks who retired after 30 years (under a long standing early-out clause in the UAW contract) may find out the hard way that the PBGC guarantee is not nearly the same if you retired before age 60.

Thus, there are thousands of folks who went to work for GM at the age of 18 or 20, and "retired" at 48 and 50, who may see their pensions cut down to less than half of what they would have received otherwise.

So, if you think that retiring early will come along with the same safety net as it would for someone who retires at 60 or 62, be sure to get some advice from a retirement counselor before taking the plunge.

 

[eolesen]

This figure does not take into account the fact that top pay has not kept up with inflation

You love to point at how pay has gone down since 1983, but if you look at airline compensation over a much longer timespan, perhaps you'd see that its more in line with inflation once correct for the fact that airline employees were overpaid for most of the 60's and 70's.

Unfortunately for you and just about everyone here except perhaps for NHBB's, we showed up on the property just in time to be the correction...

 

[MCI transplant]

You love to point at how pay has gone down since 1983, but if you look at airline compensation over a much longer timespan, perhaps you'd see that its more in line with inflation once correct for the fact that airline employees were overpaid for most of the 60's and 70's.

Unfortunately for you and just about everyone here except perhaps for NHBB's, we showed up on the property just in time to be the correction...

<_< Strange you should bring up that time span! An important factor your also neglecting to meantion is a "regulated" industry, vrs. a "deregulated one"! And it's impact on AMT compensation!!! What year was it? 1971???

 

[Bob Owens]

You love to point at how pay has gone down since 1983, but if you look at airline compensation over a much longer timespan, perhaps you'd see that its more in line with inflation once correct for the fact that airline employees were overpaid for most of the 60's and 70's.

Unfortunately for you and just about everyone here except perhaps for NHBB's, we showed up on the property just in time to be the correction...

Oh really? Can you produce figures? Or are you just blowing smoke as usual?

How about if we compare Executive pay over the same period?

"Correction" my a$$.

<_< Hey Bob!!! What about TWA???? Look where a 10 year freeze on our retirement has gotten us???? We're still working, (those lucky enough), to make up for those ten years, for a company that hates our guts!! And still won't have a desant retirement!!!! :angry: Whatever you do, don't go the way we have! Give up only what you most! But keep your retirement in tack no matter what the cost, or end up working tell your sixty five+ just to survive like a lot of my fellow exTWAer workers!!!!

Well our pension is based on our salary, so settling for a wage you cant live on will only guarantee you a pension you cant live on either.

There is no security on poverty.

 

[MCI transplant]

Oh really? Can you produce figures? Or are you just blowing smoke as usual?

How about if we compare Executive pay over the same period?

"Correction" my a$$.
Well our pension is based on our salary, so settling for a wage you cant live on will only guarantee you a pension you cant live on either.

There is no security on poverty.

<_< Agreed! There is no security on porerty!!!Oh! by the way! Our retirement was based on our salary also!!!!

 

[eolesen]

Oh really? Can you produce figures? Or are you just blowing smoke as usual?

How about if we compare Executive pay over the same period?

"Correction" my a$$.

Yep. I'll gladly provide them to you after I've submitted it as part of my MBA program. Wouldn't want anyone to think I stole my research off the internet...