Mechanics Have Reason To Be Upset

[Bob Owens]

On 5/4/2003 KCFlyer wrote:

No, it''s not limiting you to Wal Mart security guards. That $42,000 runs the gamut between Wal Mart security guards and folks like Bill Gates. $59,000 per year is a considerable amount more than the median household income in the United States.


Unlike executives we dont get to determine how we pay ourselves

Neither does 99.99% of the people in the US. Aside from those in commission sales, we pretty much make a salary that is not determined by us.



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On 5/4/2003 10:55:09 AM KCFlyer wrote:




By the same token, why is there such an outcry about executive wages? They are, after all, in line with those in their profession. In fact, airline execs compensation pacakages tend to lag behind others in similar positions.

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Because in all other professions there is a balance of interests. Only executives enjoy the benifit of having other executives determining what they are worth. Veru often executives sit on several different boards together. Obviously there is a conflict of interests in this situation. Could you imagine if all professions could determine compensation in this manner? Executive compensation is not determined by market forces but rather by an "old boy" network.

That $42000 also runs the gamut from New York, San Franciso and every one horse town in between. Obvuiosly some places cost a lot more than others to live, most industries take this into account, but not most airlines. SWA is one that does. Perhaps if I lived in KC I would consider this compensation adequate, but not here in NY. As far as moving, why should I, is it unreasonable to expect a salary that is fitting for my skills here where I work?

If I move someone else will find themselves in the same position I''m in. The airlines resist regional differentails, they at one time just paid everyone a salary that was based on NY or LAX . Now they expect people in NY or LAX to live on a Tulsa based salary. They need to have people in NY & LAX because thats where they make the money, if they want to keep it that way they better change the way they do business.​

 

[RV4]

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On 5/4/2003 1207 PM KCFlyer wrote:
Oh how I wish they would.  Then again, you''d most likely find fault with their replacements and their compensation package, and of course you''d still have the TWU hanging around - no respite from the complaints there.   I suppose you could vote in the AMFA, but I don''t see how that would change your situation one iota.

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Simply show us ONE contract negotiations that the members of AMFA were denied the right to a "credible" vote and you will be declared correct in how you "see things"!

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/4/2003 6:12:01 PM RV4 wrote:

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On 5/4/2003 1207 PM KCFlyer wrote:
Oh how I wish they would.  Then again, you''d most likely find fault with their replacements and their compensation package, and of course you''d still have the TWU hanging around - no respite from the complaints there.   I suppose you could vote in the AMFA, but I don''t see how that would change your situation one iota.


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Simply show us ONE contract negotiations that the members of AMFA were denied the right to a "credible" vote and you will be declared correct in how you "see things"!


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RV4 - I''ll be happy to, just as soon as you show me ONE thing that will improve your situation and the situation of American Airlines if AMFA is voted in tomorrow. That''s why I pity anyone who has to work with you...sure the AMFA may be the best thing since sliced bread, but there''s NOTHING they can do in the foreseeable future to improve your situation. To have to listen to nonstop bitching about the weak sister TWU and the complaints of inept management would be worse than any paycuts a coworker had to take.

 

[Buck]

The seperation from the other work groups would greatly improve our ability to negotiate a wage based on our skill and posiibly some form of COLA. True democracy without the union leader caving into company demands because the threat od layoff of unskilled labor. The knowledge that dues collection will be used for Collective Bargaining and Representation without the use of dues for the political process without the members permission.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/4/2003 7:57:53 PM RV4 wrote:

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I fear you are a common liar. You cannot produce ONE contract negotiations that the members of AMFA were denied the right to a "credible" vote yet you claim you would be happy to, only if....

...Re-call of Local and National Officers.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn''t gain you anything today

Direct Election of National Officers instead of appointments.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn''t gain you anything today

Ratification of side letters of agreement.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn''t gain you anything today

Restriction to the represntation of the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn''t gain you anything today

Unity and common ground with ALL mechanics of the industry.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - UAL and U in bankruptcy - NWA looking for concessions. If that''s the kind of common ground you want, more power to ya, however, it doesn''t gain you anything today

There are several "improvements" to my current situation...

And here I thought it was about the money. It''s amazing that AMFA couldn''t have been voted in sooner and helped AA avoid the financial predicament it finds itself in today.


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[RV4]

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On 5/4/2003 646 PM KCFlyer wrote:

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On 5/4/2003 6:12:01 PM RV4 wrote:

Simply show us ONE contract negotiations that the members of AMFA were denied the right to a "credible" vote and you will be declared correct in how you "see things"!


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RV4 - I'll be happy to, just as soon as you show me ONE thing that will improve your situation and the situation of American Airlines if AMFA is voted in tomorrow. That's why I pity anyone who has to work with you...sure the AMFA may be the best thing since sliced bread, but there's NOTHING they can do in the foreseeable future to improve your situation. To have to listen to nonstop bitching about the weak sister TWU and the complaints of inept management would be worse than any paycuts a coworker had to take.
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I fear you are a common liar. You cannot produce ONE contract negotiations that the members of AMFA were denied the right to a "credible" vote yet you claim you would be happy to, only if....

...Re-call of Local and National Officers.

Direct Election of National Officers instead of appointments.

Ratification of side letters of agreement.

Restriction to the represntation of the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class.

Unity and common ground with ALL mechanics of the industry.

There are several "improvements" to my current situation...

...Now show your ONE contract negotiations that the members of AMFA were denied the right to a "credible" vote??? You said you would be happy to...right? Can you back your "pity" up with facts?

 

[RV4]

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On 5/4/2003 8:48:45 PM KCFlyer wrote:


Okay RV4 - i"m a common liar. But can you show me ONE coworker who can honestly say that they enjoy working beside you. Geesh.
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That''s easy, Buck, how about it?

 

[Buck]

On 5/4/2003 8:48:45 PM KCFlyer wrote:


Okay RV4 - i"m a common liar. But can you show me ONE coworker who can honestly say that they enjoy working beside you. Geesh.

I work with RV4 on a daily basis. I find it to be a rewarding experience. RV4 has the ability to remember a lot of facts. I also know that he is popular with his other coworkers, even those that still support the TWU. Those that are his coworkers and not members of any union regard RV4 with respect. Rv4 is always ready to assist to get the job accomplished. Over the last two years he has made a strong effort to help reorganize his direct area and keep this airline afloat. You, KCFLyer may see yourself as a common liar, but that is not true of RV4''s coworkers.​

 

[KCFlyer]

Okay RV4 - i"m a common liar. But can you show me ONE coworker who can honestly say that they enjoy working beside you. Geesh.

 

[aapitbull]

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On 5/4/2003 9:12:23 PM Buck wrote:

On 5/4/2003 8:48:45 PM KCFlyer wrote:


Okay RV4 - i"m a common liar.  But can you show me ONE coworker who can honestly say that they enjoy working beside you.  Geesh.

I work with RV4 on a daily basis. I find it to be a rewarding experience. RV4 has the ability to remember a lot of facts. I also know that he is popular with his other coworkers, even those that still support the TWU. Those that are his coworkers and not members of any union regard RV4 with respect. Rv4 is always ready to assist to get the job accomplished. Over the last two years he has made a strong effort to help reorganize his direct area and keep this airline afloat. You, KCFLyer may see yourself as a common liar, but that is not true of RV4''s coworkers.​

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Ditto on what Buck said and I would add I have never known him to take a postion on something without first researching what he is talking about,something I cannot say about you!

I would also point out that in three years when the contract is amendable I believe having split off from the twu will increase our chances of succesfully reaching a t/a without waiting the full five years.

Not to mention that while tied to the twu we must worry about 3400 layed off workers if we split it''s only 1373 which I believe would increase the chances of their recall since we would only be looking out for the mechanic and related!!

 

[RV4]

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On 5/4/2003 8:57:16 PM KCFlyer wrote:

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On 5/4/2003 7:57:53 PM RV4 wrote:

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I fear you are a common liar. You cannot produce ONE contract negotiations that the members of AMFA were denied the right to a "credible" vote yet you claim you would be happy to, only if....

...Re-call of Local and National Officers.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn't gain you anything today

Direct Election of National Officers instead of appointments.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn't gain you anything today

Ratification of side letters of agreement.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn't gain you anything today

Restriction to the represntation of the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - doesn't gain you anything today

Unity and common ground with ALL mechanics of the industry.

American Airlines still on the edge of bankruptcy - UAL and U in bankruptcy - NWA looking for concessions. If that's the kind of common ground you want, more power to ya, however, it doesn't gain you anything today

There are several "improvements" to my current situation...

And here I thought it was about the money. It's amazing that AMFA couldn't have been voted in sooner and helped AA avoid the financial predicament it finds itself in today.

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The money part of the equation will only be fixed when the sellout union officer is held accountable to the member and in turn, managment will then be accountable because we will cease funding their mistakes on our own backs and paychecks.

Most important - I believe it is another management mistake to have this company "on the edge" of Bankruptcy instead of in Chapter 11 re-organization. Management will sqaunder this decision and concession also.

1983 - AA Given B-Scale Mechanic Pay Rate
Yet, Still on the edge of Bankruptcy

1985 - AA Given C-Scale Mechanic Probation Periods and Health Insurance Delay
Yet, Still on the edge of Bankruptcy

1989 - AA Given Flex Benefits that requires substantial out-of-paycheck contributions.
Yet, Still on the edge of Bankruptcy

1993 - AA Given pre-funding of Retirement Health Benefits
Yet, Still on the edge of Bankruptcy

1995 - AA Given SRP/OSM payrates below 1983 pay levels, and Weight and Thrust experience restrictions to delay pay progession.
Yet, Still on the edge of Bankruptcy

KCFlyer, I never claimed AMFA would improve management decisions at AA. But it is a proven fact that TWU negotiated concessions have not and will not "improve my current situtation"!

It also appears that employee concessions do nothing to turn the direction and accountablility of poor management decisions. You keep harping on us for bitching about management. Yet there are nearly 20 years of concessions posted above and we are still on the edge of Bankruptcy. In your mind, who should be responsible?

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 5/2/2003 8:12:07 PM RV4 wrote:

UNITED AIRLINES had a cost that equaled 1.2 cents more per seat mile, yet, their mechanics only took a 13% paycut, have NO OSM''s in overhual, Have NO loss of holidays, vacation, and sick time.
Thank you TWU

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Duh. They took a lower paycut because they also permanently lost almost 2,400 jobs with the closure of the IND and OAK overhaul bases. That''s $141M (oh, the irony...) using $59K as a salary/benefits cost for the average worker at OAK and IAM.

From what I understand, the TWU had similar options on the table to eliminate jobs vs. paycuts. They chose to keep jobs.

 

[Boomer]

eolesen,
The Maint. & Related went in with a proposal to save the contract and take the hit through layoffs.

AA would not allow it.

 

[RV4]

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On 5/6/2003 10:01:21 AM eolesen wrote:


From what I understand, the TWU had similar options on the table to eliminate jobs vs. paycuts. They chose to keep jobs.

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Huh? Who is the "TWU", or "they" as you put it?

 

[Wretched Wrench]

From what I understand, the TWU had similar options on the table to eliminate jobs vs. paycuts. They chose to keep jobs.

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The choice was made by the company. The company got the pay cuts and other concessions first.. The elimination of jobs will come as the next step. It is inevitable. The future is outsourcing. The TWU knows this, but is trying to milk the last possible nickle of dues income before it happens. But both the company and the TWU know that when the shops and overhaul are gone, the line mechs will vote them out. So the company has to weigh the extra cost of heavy maintenance done in house vs the cost of another, perhaps less compliant, union representing the mechanics.