mci likely to close regardless

[Bob Owens]

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On 4/17/2003 9:49:25 AM eolesen wrote:

If I gave Bob an orange and it came back looking like a pineapple, would it worth as much as a green tomato?...

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I''ll have to check with the wife. She does the grocery shopping.

Are you still driving miles out of your way to save pennies on a gallon of gas?

Did AA lose money on the Canadien deal?
Was the value of the services it provided worth $500 million or $323 million?

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 4/16/2003 11:38:58 PM Boomer wrote:
cAArty said that if AMR went into BK, they would need $500 MILLION more in concessions. The WSJ, on Friday, reported that cAArty said despite Union Concessions, AMR may likely have to declare bankruptcy.

cAArty is also on record as saying that if the Unions grant the concessions required, bankruptcy could be avoided.

When was cAArty telling the truth?

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Both times.

Trying to predict the outcome right now is like trying to predict the weather in Texas during the springtime. "It''s going to be mostly sunny with a high of 85 today, with a slight chance of afternoon tornados and damaging hail..."

That was the forecast for Fort Worth on the day that a tornado ripped thru downtown three years ago. It was a beautiful day. Up until about 4pm...

Bankruptcy could be avoided, but it may still be necessary. Nobody has ever said that getting labor costs in line was the only hurdle left. There are still several left to go, mainly renegotiating aircraft leases, restructuring debt, and getting relief from suppliers on contracts for services.

The statements from Carty are no different from a pre-flight briefing. You plan and prepare for the worst, but hope and pray for the best.

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 4/17/2003 10:17:42 AM jetlag wrote:

Eric, I agree with you, but in addition, I have read the opinion of many aviation experts that say our business model needs to be changed. How long will Carty and friends continue on this outdated structure? Employee givebacks will not be enough to continue on this path. We need new leadership with a vision, not this same old business as usual crap.

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Jetlag:

Are those the same experts who predicted about 12 months ago that both AA and United were not likely to file BK, and that USAir would be out of business?

The model is not the problem, the economy is the problem. Airlines (or any slim-profit-margin business) struggle during weak economic times. Are there fixes that can be made to the model to make it more efficient? Sure there are. And those fixes will be made. But things are not going to get better until the economy markedly improves.

TANSTAAFL

 

[jetlag]

Eric, I agree with you, but in addition, I have read the opinion of many aviation experts that say our business model needs to be changed. How long will Carty and friends continue on this outdated structure? Employee givebacks will not be enough to continue on this path. We need new leadership with a vision, not this same old business as usual crap.

 

[AAmech]

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On 4/17/2003 10:17:42 AM jetlag wrote:

Eric, I agree with you, but in addition, I have read the opinion of many aviation experts that say our business model needs to be changed. How long will Carty and friends continue on this outdated structure? Employee givebacks will not be enough to continue on this path. We need new leadership with a vision, not this same old business as usual crap.

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"The business model needs to be changed" is aviation pundit code for, "you pay your employees way too much"!

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 4/17/2003 10:30:05 AM Bob Owens wrote:

I''ll have to check with the wife. She does the grocery shopping.

Are you still driving miles out of your way to save pennies on a gallon of gas?


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That first statement explains a lot...

And your math is still fuzzy on the gallon of gas example you keep bringing up.

TANSTAAFL

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

That was from a comparison to LCC's a few weeks ago.

Bob was shocked by the fact that I drive two miles further to save a few cents per gallon on gas at a LPP (low-price-provider), rather than fill up at price gouging chains like Chevron, Texaco, and Shell.

Today, that paid off for a savings of 4c per gallon, which may only be 75c saved today, but runs a couple hundred when averaged out over a year for two vehicles. By buying from the LPP, it also helps guarantee that they'll stay in business.

I also refuse to buy anything from McDonalds and Wendy's that isn't on the dollar menu, which I'm sure will come as no shock to anyone who knows me. Clark Howard would be proud...

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 4/17/2003 2:40:24 PM eolesen wrote:

That was from a comparison to LCC's a few weeks ago.

Bob was shocked by the fact that I drive two miles further to save a few cents per gallon on gas at a LPP (low-price-provider), rather than fill up at price gouging chains like Chevron, Texaco, and Shell.

Today, that paid off for a savings of 4c per gallon, which may only be 75c saved today, but runs a couple hundred when averaged out over a year for two vehicles. By buying from the LPP, it also helps guarantee that they'll stay in business.

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Eolesen:

I recall the example. IIRC, the reason he believed it to be not worth the money was because he factored in a cost-per-minute of what his time was worth. I could take that concept to absurd lengths, like charging your kids for you to play with them (we played catch for an hour, that'll be $20, Timmy), but I won't go there.

And I do the same thing you do as far as gas; saves me a bundle.

TANSTAAFL

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 4/17/2003 2:40:24 PM eolesen wrote:

That was from a comparison to LCC's a few weeks ago.

Bob was shocked by the fact that I drive two miles further to save a few cents per gallon on gas at a LPP (low-price-provider), rather than fill up at price gouging chains like Chevron, Texaco, and Shell.

Today, that paid off for a savings of 4c per gallon, which may only be 75c saved today, but runs a couple hundred when averaged out over a year for two vehicles. By buying from the LPP, it also helps guarantee that they'll stay in business.

I also refuse to buy anything from McDonalds and Wendy's that isn't on the dollar menu, which I'm sure will come as no shock to anyone who knows me. Clark Howard would be proud...

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Thats right, but how much gas do you use to get there and back, how much is your time worth and wear and tear on the vehicle and the addition risk of an accident? All costs must be considered.

Do you really believe that YOU keep them in business? If it was on your way thats one thing but to go two miles out of way does not make sense. If this is the way our company is managed no wonder we are in trouble.

WXGuesser,As far as charging your kid to play with them, well if you consider that an expense rather than a pleasure then I feel for him.

 

[Connected1]

Have we run out of stuff to talk about?

 

[nyc6035]

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On 4/17/2003 2:40:24 PM eolesen wrote:

By buying from the LPP, it also helps guarantee that they''ll stay in business.

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That''s kind of how I feel about the LCC of the world...with a twist. I hope B6, HP and FL continue to do well as they bring (to some extent) pricing discipline to the AA''s of the world. I may not actually ever fly one of those carriers, but I do hope somebody does so that ticket prices stay somewhat reasonable at the larger carriers.

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 4/17/2003 3:03:13 PM Bob Owens wrote:


Thats right, but how much gas do you use to get there and back, how much is your time worth and wear and tear on the vehicle and the addition risk of an accident? All costs must be considered.

Do you really believe that YOU keep them in business? If it was on your way thats one thing but to go two miles out of way does not make sense. If this is the way our company is managed no wonder we are in trouble.

WXGuesser,As far as charging your kid to play with them, well if you consider that an expense rather than a pleasure then I feel for him.

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Two miles isn't very far, does not use that much gas, does not incur that much additional wear and tear (not when I'm driving 30 miles a day roundtrip to work, and that two miles is only a slight detour). As for risk of an accident, it's as great as driving any other two miles.

As for what my time is worth, it's not worth a thing outside of work. It's my time and if I want to spend it driving a little farther to get gas, it's my time to do so. That was the point of my example about charging your kids to play with you... you consider your time away from work to have monetary value. I don't. And if I had kids, I would play with them as much as I could.

FWIW, I think this thread has developed a severe case of creep... should we move this discussion to the Just Conversation board?

TANSTAAFL

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 4/17/2003 4:09:05 PM WXGuesser wrote:

Two miles isn''t very far, does not use that much gas, does not incur that much additional wear and tear (not when I''m driving 30 miles a day roundtrip to work, and that two miles is only a slight detour). As for risk of an accident, it''s as great as driving any other two miles.

As for what my time is worth, it''s not worth a thing outside of work. It''s my time and if I want to spend it driving a little farther to get gas, it''s my time to do so. That was the point of my example about charging your kids to play with you... you consider your time away from work to have monetary value. I don''t. And if I had kids, I would play with them as much as I could.

FWIW, I think this thread has developed a severe case of creep... should we move this discussion to the Just Conversation board?

TANSTAAFL


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If you consider driving to save a few pennies fun then its worth it. If you are doing it for economical reasons then it really does not pay. The fact that you consider time not at work worthless is sad. I consider my free time extremely valuable. Thats why I want to get paid a fair amount. I want to charge more and have more free time. If I considered my time away from work worthless then maybe I would not mind working for pennies.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

Good comparison to EAL/Texas Air. Hadn''t thought about that one. Eastern paid Texas Air far more in service fees than Texas Air ever put into it... The major difference is that we were a third party to CDN, as opposed to being part of the same corporation.

 

[FrugalFlyer]

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On 4/17/2003 10:30:05 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Did AA lose money on the Canadien deal?
Was the value of the services it provided worth $500 million or $323 million?
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I don''t think AA lost on the CP deal. AA gave CP the ca$h to extend its life, but AA or should I say AMR received good compensation for services rendered to CP courtesy of Sabre. It was sort of like the management fee Eastern paid to F. Lorenzo/Texas Air.