math 101 doesn''t add up

[harleyrider]

Friend of mine gets off a 4 day trip, every flight is full except 2 legs, one has 75 pax, the other 90 pax. Some flights were over sold. SO,, how can this management at U say that we are still losing money?? Plus, I noticed while walking around , that the Airports are full, you notice these little things , because people keep bumping into you. Management, says that they are going to get rid of routes that no longer make any money, are all of this people in the airport, just shopping!! Maybe they are taking the family out for dinner. Maybe to show the kids the airplanes taking off or maybe little Johnny wants to see what a RJ looks like. Wait a sec.....all of this people are on the other side of Security, where you need a ticket. Call me stupid, what the hell is going on here. Someone, shake Austin, wake him up. It''s not the employees any more! Time to start focusing on marketing, time to maybe start adding flights, if you are oversold you are forcing pax to look elsewhere. If you downsize enough than management will only manage itself. Where have all the employees gone!!! We,re not happy, until your not happy.

 

[cat 111]

Why is it American and now United made $$$$$ last month? I can''t wait to see the numbers for this airline.They can''t show a profit because they will have to give back the 5% to the employees if they do.

 

[tadjr]

Problem is the flights are full, but theres very little $ in the tickets. Seems like a good time to try to raise some fares a little if everything is full.

 

[PITbull]

Yea, I believe you are right. They will milk this 5% for as long as we collectively allow them to. They will show no profit on the books while their is $4.3 Billion outstanding for RJs.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

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On 6/27/2003 302 PM cat 111 wrote:

Why is it American and now United made $$$$$ last month? I can''t wait to see the numbers for this airline.They can''t show a profit because they will have to give back the 5% to the employees if they do.

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It has to be an entire QUARTER, not just a month (according to Dave''s last tirade).

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

Again, my friend, let me be clear.

the 5% deferral, whether "gun-was-pointed-to-head or not" in any ones opinion, is not relevant to the 5% deferral, as there is no doubt that language regarding 5% was ratified. Having a
weaker oponent" is not justification to violate contract language either. And, the challenge has nothing to do with what is fair, rather, has to do with contract language.


Now, you have to investigate further...what's in the language that would "trigger" this 5% event.

What was ratified was a peice of language that clearly states that in the case of a WAR WITH IRAQ that if the US has a substantial amount of ground troops in the region or sustained arial bombing that in either case would have an "adverse" effect on the airline industry, that a 5% deferral would commence.

So, being the intelligent labor group that we are, and remembering the "intent" and spirit by which this language was written, one has to ask themselves, is ALL of U's problems with revenue decline, due to THE WAR? OR, could the real reason have to do with SARS, general soft economy that was in place BEFORE the war, related to terrorism and 9/11, or is it STILL all caused by the "so called" war effect? Could it be that we may just have a management team that are experts in cutting costs, BUT, do not know how to run the operation of an airline? How is it that the airlines that had their costs in check before the war...made money, and AFTER the war...still are in the black?

Someone please explain this phenomenon? Please explain that if fuel prices spiked up for two weeks, but are presently where they were before the war....were is this effect from the war on the INdustry? Was not United in BK before the war? Were not the other majors that have their cost structure and lease agreements from the 90's screaming cost
reductions to their labor groups or else, BEFORE the war?
What part of U's problem with revenue is from a war effect? And the language does not speak to if U is having the problem, but the war effect on the ENTIRE industry. This management wrote the language and the return to be over 18 months using the Gulf war from the early 90's as the gage. They told our negotiators that the "war effect" back then lasted 18 months with regard to fuel prices high and an unrbounding economy at that time all related to the war.

Now look at today. The war lasted 3 weeks, and if you look at the stats, we are where we were one year ago.

PS. I don't shop much, so I don't get sale prices. I end up paying retail for just about everything.

 

[wings396]

Bob, I enjoy many of your posts....but to say that the negotiations were fair...that is out of line. Threats of liqudation weeks before the holdays is in no way fair. There was no bargaining, only threats to shut down the company IF we didn't go along with the 5% and all of the other crap. It is true at AMR & UAL say they were cash positive in May...what about us??? We have cut more than both of them combined, yet still bleed cash according to management...something is wrong with this picture.

 

[MarkMyWords]

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On 6/27/2003 839 PM wings396 wrote:

Threats of liqudation weeks before the holdays is in no way fair. There was no bargaining, only threats to shut down the company IF we didn''t go along with the 5% and all of the other crap.

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Just one question: How is this any different then when a union threatens to strike?

It is called tactics. And anyone that does not believe that this company was with in days of liquidating if there were no concessionary contracts needs to put the crack pipe down.

 

[LavMan]

Mark, go ask Dave for another glass of Koolaide.

Unionized workers in the transportation industry have to jump thru hoops to obtain a contract because we are goverened under an archiac piece of legislation that was written in 1926 to prevent the stoppage of interstate commerce, not to protect the workers, airlines did not even exit when the Railway Labor Act was written.

Let me give you some examples, the IAMAW/US Airways Mechanic and Related Agreement became amendable in August of 1995 (contract under the RLA do not expire, they become amendable, therefore you cannot strike until you go thru federal mediation and go into a 30 day cooling off period when the National Mediation Board declares an impasse in negotiation, even then the President can step in and declare a Presidential Emergency Board and prevent you from striking for another 60 days, and then he can ask Congress to legislate a contract and you never ever get to vote on it and never get to strike, where is the democracy in that?).

A tentative agreement was reached in June of 1999, (and we had no raises, over this time period while the company was enjoying profits) we voted that contract down and we were not permitted by the NMB to strike. So four more months of negotiations and another tentative was reached and ratified when we were in a 30 day cooling off period. No we did not get any retro money, so we had no raises for over 4 1/2 years.

There is no threat of a strike in the transporation industry so there is no gun held to management.

Go ask any unionized Railroad Worker when was the last time they got to vote on a contract, the majority of answers you will hear is never, Congress legislates them, where is the democracy in that?

You really need to inform yourself of how the process works and how the Airlines and Railroads use the RLA to screw their employees.

Why are the airlines lobbying Congress to change the RLA and take away worker's rights to vote on a contract?

This country was formed becuase of the lack of rights and persecution and the right to vote and your airline executive along with the Air Transport Association are using federal bailout money to fund the highest paid lobbiest in Washington to take away a funamental right to vote which this country was founded upon.

 

[AAmech]

AA is NOT making money! They have stopped the bleeding and gone "cash positive". They will post a good size loss this quarter.

 

[harleyrider]

Bob, We did vote for the contract BUT We were bent over a rock with a gun to our head. Sign, or else!!! RIGHT..As for the 5% it was only for as long as the war was on. All the other airlines gave the 5% back, do you agree? Than why is U and Austin still insistent, on not giving the 5% back to the employees. Management sound just like Baghdad Bob, " No the Americans are not here, we are killing them by the thousands." When in fact, it was the other way around. Management says, "The war is still going on." When the President of The United States, George Bush said, {you may correct me if I am wrong Bobby boy} just last week that he declared the war over. You also said , Oops, fell off my chair laughing, that the negotiations were fair, Yeah right, depends on what side of the table you were sitting on. This is business, as long as you get your bonus and your perks and piss on all the other people who have been here for years, not like you short timers. You would be in your glory if we made even less money. Why don''t you tell us all, right now, what you think we are really worth, so every one can see......

The price of freedom is risk
No !!
Beware of the man who shakes your hand and pats you on the back, because he''s looking for a soft spot, to put the knife....

 

[A320 Driver]

Good point Bob. We are amateurs negotiating with professionals. All the unions need professional negotiators before we meet management for ANYTHING. We have been manipulated to the point of being ridiculous. As for judging us Bob, you only see one small slice of time in the life of a U employee. You really have no clue what we deal with day in and day out. As for the 5%, I can assure you that not one employee at U agreed for the deferral to be used under the present conditions. U management is taking advantage of the employees by interpretting our contracts in whatever way they see fit! OUR INTENT in negotiations DOES have legitimacy.

A320 Driver

 

[PITbull]

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On 6/27/2003 1150 PM PineyBob wrote:


PIT,
If the war lasted one minute, the clause could have and in my opinion would have activated by US.. Whether you like it or not there is no "spirit" or "intent", There is what is "legally defensible" and that is years away and in the hands of a judge who may or may not be airline industry savvy or labor friendly.

You need to walk back to your metaphorical corner and realize you nearly got knocked out this round. Get your rest and your wits about you, put your mouthpiece back in and get back out there and figure out how to win instead of bellyaching to the referee about all of the low blows the other guy is throwing.

By keeping up this constant drumbeat over the 5% and the "unfairness" of it. All you are doing is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Next time you do "informational picketing" why not do it on how management isn't doing enough to market the airline and how management refuses to listen to your money saving suggestions? That will have far more weight with the flying public. Plus you can embarass Ben B. and the rwest of the morons in public. Get the AFA to give you back some of the $34.00 per member per month in the form of a PR campaign designed to discredit management to Wall Street by pointing out their failure to implement money saving solutions generated by union members or to take steps to grow the airline and compete agressively. Make Wall Street rethink Dave's status as the darling of airline exec's. Fight the current war not the last one.

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Bob,

Thanks for your inspiring comments....

My "mouth piece" has never been removed. obviously.

I will keep up the fight for the 5% on these boards and to the public. Whether the public is indifferent on the issues of 5% or the sick, will never move me to stop. There are enough that do care that f/a come to work ill because they can no longer endure any more pay penalties and cuts. The 5% is wrong for the reasons (lies) this management cites. That issue will not die. and my implying that I am belly aching and it annoys some folks on this board, does not move me.

What will be most effective for me to STOP, is resolution from mangement on three issues:

a. For mangement to stop violating the f/a agreement with regard to the sick pay penalty.

b. Medical coverage that were promised in our negotiations. Nothing less.

c. GIVE BACK THE 5%. They are stealing.

Once resolved I will shut up.

Until then, there will be no silence here.

PS. With regard to pay cuts from International of AFA, OUR OFFICERS ELECTED TO TAKE A 10% PAY CUT.
Now that is a fact.

 

[harleyrider]

Bob
If this company ever wants to move forward, then Austin and his management team are going to have to mend some fences. Right now labor thinks that Austin is no more that a two faced liar. I know that sometimes companies must layoff from time to time and I have gone through this many times in my younger day. This is not my first job and I know the hardships that many are going through right now. Austin at some point, has to take his head out of the clouds and see what he has done to his employees. When I see what has happened to my fellow workers, some in bankruptcy, some who couldn''t see any other way out, but to take their own life, someone better wake up. Restoring the 5% would say volumes and take some of the pressures off these employees. Now is the time!! If Austin wants to be a true leader and be remembered as a leader than he should give the 5% back. Right now I think he is more evil than wolfman and all his cronies put together. Remember; That people remember you, not by your words, but by your actions.

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

Never in all my years here would I have ever dreamed that I would go up against my own management. No matter what the issue, we as Labor and Labor leaders never dealt with a managment team that does not care about their employees who run the business and make it viable. For the life of me, it is beyond my understanding. And with all my education, in my heart of hearts I know they are so wrong. This is not how businesses run or succeed in the short or long run.

Concessions are not the issue any more...it is the threats and exaggerations and disingenuousness of this mangemen. The folks that have been here for years are just fed up, and now, are speaking out. Their style of management is so harsh and they have such a blatant disregard for the employees. When a mangement team cuts their employees off at the knees and make drastic changes to their OJI (work related injury)claims, Long Term Disablility cuts, sick pay penalities that are huge, and medical contributions and out of pocket expenses due to less coverages and even to deny them tests and procedures and surgeries that are professionally recommended by their health care professionals it is out rageous. Obviously, we are not leaving OUR company; we will demand change reasonably, or we will force it. There may come a time where the employees will either see improvements in their working conditions OR they will demand change in mangement from the Board.

Thus far, outside of knowing how to cut costs and cripple unions, I have not seen them marshall our work force into a cohesive, synergistic unit. By attempting to "shut up" your employees, and hide things under the carpet, does not make the problems go away. They can not brainwash all of us like in "the stepford wives".

Folks want to blame the union leadership. Well, there were union reps that freely spoke out against these severe concessions for the very reasons we sit here today. The membership in all the unions "bought" into this mangement's bait. The union reps do NOT make up the union. It takes membership involvement and collective thinking and action to elicit positive change in the work place.