Management Bonuses

[pilot]

Pilot, I can't take credit for the following, and I am paraphrasing:

When you elect to join a union, and base your salary level entirely on seniority (and therefore equipment size), you give up the option to base your salary on anything else.

Your salary is not based on your "responsibility" level, it is based on your market value.

Not just if you join a union friend. I see you have a bias in that regard. You get what you negotiate, not what you're worth. Colin Powell demands much more for a speech than Lou Holtz. Neither are in a union. Negotiating a pay package is generally done either individually or as a union. I happen to belong to a union whose members have accepted what management is telling them what the pilot profession is worth.

I fully agree with your "market value" sentence. And the market value of a LUV pilot is 60 bucks an hour higher than a a U pilot. In fact, almost every 121 carrier pilot makes more per hour than a U pilot. Is that because our "market value" is less or because we didn't negotiate as well as the others? "Market value" is negotiated.

It's because we do not have the collective will to determine our "market value". We have allowed an over reaching, incompetent management to tell us what that number is. 57% of the U pilot group voted to accept an inferior pay structure because they were afraid they would lose their "jobs" if they didn't. So be it.

ALPA has not stopped the degradation of the profession because the collective will of the group will not speak to the ultimate negotiating tactic. Until that happens. until we are willing to stop flying the jets, we will continue to see the downward spiral of the profession.

This isn't a "union" thing. This is about professionals not having courage to demand what they are worth. About professionals negotiating their own "market value".

pilot

 

[Snafu]

Not just if you join a union friend. I see you have a bias in that regard. You get what you negotiate, not what you're worth. Colin Powell demands much more for a speech than Lou Holtz. Neither are in a union. Negotiating a pay package is generally done either individually or as a union. I happen to belong to a union whose members have accepted what management is telling them what the pilot profession is worth.

I fully agree with your "market value" sentence. And the market value of a LUV pilot is 60 bucks an hour higher than a a U pilot. In fact, almost every 121 carrier pilot makes more per hour than a U pilot. Is that because our "market value" is less or because we didn't negotiate as well as the others? "Market value" is negotiated.

It's because we do not have the collective will to determine our "market value". We have allowed an over reaching, incompetent management to tell us what that number is. 57% of the U pilot group voted to accept an inferior pay structure because they were afraid they would lose their "jobs" if they didn't. So be it.

ALPA has not stopped the degradation of the profession because the collective will of the group will not speak to the ultimate negotiating tactic. Until that happens. until we are willing to stop flying the jets, we will continue to see the downward spiral of the profession.

This isn't a "union" thing. This is about professionals not having courage to demand what they are worth. About professionals negotiating their own "market value".

pilot

It is a "union" thing. So many groups are unionized. That's where the negotiations are done. Without unions understanding "market value" you get what they get for you. And it's not just pilots. It's licensed mechanics and probably a shipload of other professions that cannot negotiate their own "market value" because they are unionized.

 

[pilot]

It is a "union" thing. So many groups are unionized. That's where the negotiations are done. Without unions understanding "market value" you get what they get for you. And it's not just pilots. It's licensed mechanics and probably a shipload of other professions that cannot negotiate their own "market value" because they are unionized.

It's a NEGOTIATION thing sparky. It matters little whether it's an individual or a union. Don't believe me? Compare my check to a LUV pilot check.

We both belong to a "UNION".

pilot

 

[sharktooth]

Pilot, I can't take credit for the following, and I am paraphrasing:

When you elect to join a union, and base your salary level entirely on seniority (and therefore equipment size), you give up the option to base your salary on anything else.

Your salary is not based on your "responsibility" level, it is based on your market value.

One's initial salary is _always_ based on your market value, whether you are union or not. That goes from the CEO to the lowest paid newhire.

Once you are CEO, your market value is determined by a "compensation" (or similarly named) committee. It is usually staffed by the CEO, with a wink and a nod from the Board. It is considered the most important committee on the Board. Inbred behavior generally then ensues.

Contrarily, joining a union presents the corporation a bloc of employees for whom compensation rates are regularly negotiated, generally in line with "market rates". The union concept saves time and money for both the "employee" _and_ for the corporation. Instead of negotiating with each employee, the corporation can get by with less supervisors by negotiating, en bloc.

There are exceptions, the USAirways ALPA MEC over the last several years being one. They have, incredibly, been hard at work negotiating downward in all areas, actually setting market rates in a negative direction!

For instance.

The EMB 190 pay matrix (pilot position vs seniority year to determine pay rate) was initially negotiated by the USAirways "relevant" committee. The corporation then asked, because it was "new equipment", that initially, all pilots start at point less than fifteen years, negotiated to ten for Captains.

Before the matrix was posted to the pilot group for a vote, the vice chairman of USAirways ALPA MEC east, incredibly changed the starting pay to a lesser amount (eight years), further dengrating the overall pay structure! When asked why he did that, he had no reason!

Why he has a job with the union is a mystery.

 

[Snafu]

It's a NEGOTIATION thing sparky. It matters little whether it's an individual or a union. Don't believe me? Compare my check to a LUV pilot check.

We both belong to a "UNION".

pilot

Same here.........compare my check with another airline mechanics check. Major disparities all the way around. You're not alone.

 

[speedbird86]

The SEC filings mentions "targets" around a dozen times. Performance targets, finacial targets, target awards. Targets, targets, targets. What the hell are these targets?

 

[pilot]

Same here.........compare my check with another airline mechanics check. Major disparities all the way around. You're not alone.

I agree snafu. I never said I was alone. But at what point are we willing to stop and say enough is enough? That is the question.

The pilots are going to have another chance to stop the nonsense when management attempts to bring the AWA pilot hourly rate down to the U level. I wonder if that is when my group realizes that we have a large say in what the market rate is?

I sure hope the AWA guys have the guts to stand firm on this. And the U guys back them up. But with the leadership and pansy ass U group I have my doubts.

pilot

 

[Snafu]

I agree snafu. I never said I was alone. But at what point are we willing to stop and say enough is enough? That is the question.

The pilots are going to have another chance to stop the nonsense when management attempts to bring the AWA pilot hourly rate down to the U level. I wonder if that is when my group realizes that we have a large say in what the market rate is?

I sure hope the AWA guys have the guts to stand firm on this. And the U guys back them up. But with the leadership and pansy ass U group I have my doubts.

pilot

EXACTLY!! IMO, the ONLY way to stop and say enough is enough, while under the union umbrella, is to quit or HOPE that the industry turns around. The unions are only out for dues. The companies are NOT behind the employees. Way too easy to go to court and inflict pain.

 

[pilot]

Can't go to court anymore. That negotiating tactic is over. Hope is for fools. And quiting is for quiters. The employees now have leverage because of being out of BK and the enormous amount of capital others have invested in this company.

If the unions have the collective will to say we will not work for less than what LUV works for, and then backs it up by striking if necessary, we will get back to reasonable pay and work rules. We can negotiate if we have the backbone.

pilot

 

[Snafu]

Can't go to court anymore. That negotiating tactic is over. Hope is for fools. And quiting is for quiters. The employees now have leverage because of being out of BK and the enormous amount of capital others have invested in this company.

If the unions have the collective will to say we will not work for less than what LUV works for, and then backs it up by striking if necessary, we will get back to reasonable pay and work rules. We can negotiate if we have the backbone.

pilot

Maybe on the pilot side there is leverage but it sure doesn't look like it on the mechanic side. It's been said over and over again that there isn't money for the mechanics. Maybe it'll all go to the pilots.

Lots of IFS there pilot. Haven't seen the unions make that come true......not in many years.

 

[qwerty]

Then we can all agree - your only recourse to better pay may be to refuse your services. But you do that as a group, while managers do that as individuals. Management negotiated this bonus and if union members have a problem with, that's their problem.

The argument that pilots carry more responsibility and should therefore be better compensated is where we disagree. Fireman and cops carry a great deal of responsibility too, even bus and taxi drivers carry lives in their hands everyday.

 

[pilot]

Then we can all agree - your only recourse to better pay may be to refuse your services. But you do that as a group, while managers do that as individuals. Management negotiated this bonus and if union members have a problem with, that's their problem.

The argument that pilots carry more responsibility and should therefore be better compensated is where we disagree. Fireman and cops carry a great deal of responsibility too, even bus and taxi drivers carry lives in their hands everyday.

So then, according to your reasoning, pilots, firemen, busdrivers, doctors, cops, nurses, emt's, taxi drivers etc.... should be compensated the same.

Yep, that's certainly rational reasoning. Anyone who carries lives in their hands should be paid the same. No doubt about it. Very rational argument. No way I could argue the merits of your reasoning. You've got it all figured out.

pilot

 

[qwerty]

You completely missed my point. All of these professions are paid at market rates. Clearly the market rate for a pilot is much more than a bus driver, while also being less than a C level executive. All of them make more than the young Marines dying in Iraq, who carry the responsibility of protecting our freedom.

When an executive or manager negotiates a bonus, and the pilots union does not, complaining about it after the fact is rather pointless.

Years of strong unionism and a regulated industry got your profession to the top of the semi-skilled payscale, but your "I'm the ultimate end game of everything else" doesn't really fly anymore.

 

[pilot]

You completely missed my point. All of these professions are paid at market rates. Clearly the market rate for a pilot is much more than a bus driver, while also being less than a C level executive. All of them make more than the young Marines dying in Iraq, who carry the responsibility of protecting our freedom.

When an executive or manager negotiates a bonus, and the pilots union does not, complaining about it after the fact is rather pointless.

Years of strong unionism and a regulated industry got your profession to the top of the semi-skilled payscale, but your "I'm the ultimate end game of everything else" doesn't really fly anymore.

Well, actually, it flies each and every time we strap into the flight deck. You apparently don't understand the profession. Although you do seem to get the basics of economics. Congrats on that.

Semi-skilled eh? You figure Al Haynes of United and his crew was semi-skilled when the fan of his DC-10 let go over Sioux City a few years back? How about our own pilots in PVD and BOS a year or so ago? Probably didn't hear about those did you? Or do you choose to ignore them? The company would have shut the doors with all the turmoil that was going on at that time had our semi-skilled crews not prevented the deaths of a three or four hundred folks in those instances.

I could continue but it would be pointless because I know folks like you. Your mind is socialist but you live in a capatilistic country. Oh, and by the way, a ton of our pilots have protected your freedom in their fighters, tankers and transports just like the marines you mentioned. And more than a few have made the ultimate sacrifice.

Complaining is part of the negotitating process babe. That's how things get changed in a capitalistic world. Taking backhanded potshots at one of the most highly skilled and responsible professions in the world is what incompetent management types do to divert attention from their inability to run a profitable airline. What department did you say you worked in?

pilot