Make Mine a Colt-45 Please

[dfw79]

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On 2/20/2003 8:35:25 PM dogdriver wrote:

One shot to the the head will send him on his way to collect his just reward.
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[/blockquote]

You are concentrating flying a plane, then the attack begins and you hear screaming. The door gets breached - for whatever reason - and you have a mad man ready to kill you. How sure are you that you will be able to hit him in a spot that will disable them?

A gun in a cockpit may be a nice thing to think of for a pilot - but in reality if the new doors do their job, it isn't needed. Therefore you don't have to worry about a sleeper cell some how work their ways into the cockpits. What is to stop and American born member go through school, keep a clean background, get a job with a regional outfit or some airline that would provide jumpseat privledges...and suddenly you have them in the cockpit with a gun at their disposal. Of course it would be a fight for the gun...but with them sitting behind you - you won't see the initial blow to knock out 1 crew member. Then it is a nightmare all over again.

There are pros and cons...but it all comes down to, how many tools do you want to give the attackers and how much stress do you want to put on a crew that should be flying the plane - not playing sky marshall.

 

[RV4]

Speaking of "Cockpit Security Systems"...

I was walking by a brand new boxed security door in the hangar on Tuesday.

The box, sitting on the floor next to aircraft due installation, had a nice picture of heavy duty chain all linked together with a colorful blue logo.

Funny thing, on the end of the "Cockpit Security System" shipping box was a label with the words "FRAGILE-HANDLE WITH CARE". At first I laughed inside, and then wondered if I was watching Jay Leno Night show humor.

Why would the shipping box of a cockpit security system read "Fragile Handle With Care"?

 

[AA80Driver]

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On 2/20/2003 5:51:53 PM flyhigh wrote:

While Egyptian authorities may not want to admit it, I'm believing US authorities that maintain a reserve pilot took the plane down. Well, let's say Captain Bob's wife leave him...he now has nothing to stop him from taking out First Officer Joe and taking a planeload of folks with him.

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[/blockquote]

I've got news for you. If the flying pilot wants to take the plane down, the flying pilot is going to take the plane down, gun or no gun. First Officer Joe can't do much about it dead or alive.

That's why we have hiring standards, screening, testing, interviews, 6 month medical exams, random drug testing and other assorted Orwellian levels of supervision from both the company and the feds.

 

[AAG2000]

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On 2/20/2003 156 PM The Dissident wrote:

Also AG what really set me off was your statement on how guns injure their owners more than the people they are trying to defend themselves against. That type of thinking shows that you know absolutely nothing about firearms and should refrain from making comments concerning Armed flight crews. The flight crews are highly trained people alot of them with a military background. I have the faith that they would be able to not only handle the aircraft but also a weapon at the same time.
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[/blockquote]

Clearly we have different views on this issue--nothing I say will change your mind, and vice versa. All I can say is that, from personal experience, as well as the statistics I have seen on injuries/deaths caused by firearms in homes, I draw a different conclusion than you do. However, that does not mean that I am any less qualified or entitled to form my own opinion.

When I board a plane, I have plenty of faith in the pilots' flying abilities, but--with all due respect to those pilots out there who are skilled with firearms--I would rather see the role of security guard left to someone else. I'm glad you have faith in all flight crews' abilities to act as armed guards--personally, I'm not sure I do. I would need to know much more about the level of training required for pilots to carry guns--from that article, it doesn't sound like much.

Finally, I would like to point out that El Al flight crews are most definitely not armed. In fact, one El Al security expert has been an outspoken critic of the U.S. plan to arm pilots. Their philosophy has been that pilots should be concerned only with flying the plane safely, and security should be left to those who are qualified to provide it. On this issue, I am inclined to defer to the expertise of an airline that has far more experience in defending against terrorism.

 

[AA80Driver]

[blockquote]
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You are concentrating flying a plane, then the attack begins and you hear screaming. The door gets breached - for whatever reason - and you have a mad man ready to kill you. How sure are you that you will be able to hit him in a spot that will disable them?

A gun in a cockpit may be a nice thing to think of for a pilot - but in reality if the new doors do their job, it isn't needed. Therefore you don't have to worry about a sleeper cell some how work their ways into the cockpits. What is to stop and American born member go through school, keep a clean background, get a job with a regional outfit or some airline that would provide jumpseat privledges...and suddenly you have them in the cockpit with a gun at their disposal. Of course it would be a fight for the gun...but with them sitting behind you - you won't see the initial blow to knock out 1 crew member. Then it is a nightmare all over again.

There are pros and cons...but it all comes down to, how many tools do you want to give the attackers and how much stress do you want to put on a crew that should be flying the plane - not playing sky marshall.
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[/blockquote]

1. After 48 hours of training, I would hope you could hit a target 36 inches away. If not, I'd be more concerned about the guy's ability to put 150,000 of metal on the runway.

2. Your scenario may play out in a John Wayne movie, but in real life, a single blow to the head from a jump seat is not going to disable two armed crewmembers. I speak from personal experience.

3. "In reality, "if" the new doors do their job, it isn't needed." --I'm not going to discuss vulnerabilities on this forum, but I think this statement sums it up nicely.

p.s. If one engine does the job why is the other one needed?

 

[Mach85ER]

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On 2/20/2003 9:31:42 PM dfw79 wrote:

You are concentrating flying a plane, then the attack begins and you hear screaming. The door gets breached - for whatever reason - and you have a mad man ready to kill you. How sure are you that you will be able to hit him in a spot that will disable them?
[blockquote]
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Why is it that my arm/hand control can gently finess the rear two main wheels of a widebody onto the runway, and I can hit the torso of a man size target at 25 yards 90% of the time with a 10 round 9mm magazine, yet in every example given by the anti-gunner, I turn into Helen Keller with the shakes.
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[blockquote]
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On 2/20/2003 9:31:42 PM dfw79 wrote:


comes down to, how many tools do you want to give the attackers and how much stress do you want to put on a crew that should be flying the plane - not playing sky marshall.
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As an airline pilot, this logic always truly amazes me. It is stated by pundits in the media all the time. One can't make your problems going away by concentrating on flying in the event of a door breach. Let's have a Martha Stewart episode where she is baking cookies in her kitchen while an axe murderer cracks through her kitchen door. I surely wouldn't want her to ruin her almond spice souffle, but she should just concentrate on cooking.

 

[dogdriver]

dfw79 said:
You are concentrating flying a plane, then the attack begins and you hear screaming. The door gets breached - for whatever reason - and you have a mad man ready to kill you. How sure are you that you will be able to hit him in a spot that will disable them?
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Now dfw, didn't I tell you to learn more about aircraft? First of all, there are 2 of us. Second, the plane is on auto pilot most of the time and even if it was not, it only takes a second or two to turn it on. Third, even without the auto pilot on, the plane will act like a car in an empty parking lot. You can let go of the wheel and not worry about hitting something for the time it takes to shoot an intruder or 2. Lastly I must say that you must like to argue just for arguments sake. Your argument where you worry about the bad guys getting into the cockpit and taking my gun away is absurd. If they take control of the plane, what difference does it make if they have a gun or not? Either way, you're going to die. At least if I am armed, there is a very high probability that the attack will be thwarted. At this point, what do you have to lose?
While I'm at it, did you read the part of my post about the distance that between the pilots and the door? On a narrow body the shot would be 2 to 3 feet. On a wide body you can double that. Either way, the chances of missing (remember, you do have more than 1 shot) are about the same as the chances that you have a clue.

 

[Dc10hound]

Why is it that my arm/hand control can gently finess the rear two main wheels of a widebody onto the runway,

My question is off subject, but aren't you supposed to finess four main wheels onto the runway??

 

[Hopeful]

Four main wheels? What about aircraft with four main wheels on each truck? What about the other four?

 

[Dc10hound]

"Four main wheels? What about aircraft with four main wheels on each truck? What about the other four?"

The aft four touch down first, don't they?

 

[dfw79]

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On 2/21/2003 7:59:13 AM dogdriver wrote:

Now dfw, didn't I tell you to learn more about aircraft? First of all, there are 2 of us. Second, the plane is on auto pilot most of the time and even if it was not, it only takes a second or two to turn it on. Third, even without the auto pilot on, the plane will act like a car in an empty parking lot. You can let go of the wheel and not worry about hitting something for the time it takes to shoot an intruder or 2. Lastly I must say that you must like to argue just for arguments sake. Your argument where you worry about the bad guys getting into the cockpit and taking my gun away is absurd. If they take control of the plane, what difference does it make if they have a gun or not? Either way, you're going to die. At least if I am armed, there is a very high probability that the attack will be thwarted. At this point, what do you have to lose?
While I'm at it, did you read the part of my post about the distance that between the pilots and the door? On a narrow body the shot would be 2 to 3 feet. On a wide body you can double that. Either way, the chances of missing (remember, you do have more than 1 shot) are about the same as the chances that you have a clue.
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[/blockquote]

Okay so you shoot them from close range - not hard to miss. I'll give you that. What happens - with it being such close range - when the bullet is able to go straight through without losing much velocity and breach the fuselage or hit equipment that starts a fire? I'm not arguing for arguments sake...just trying to make sure that every possibility has been thought out.

Perhaps we'll just agree to disagree on this issue and leave it at that, especially since personal insults are starting to surface.

 

[Mach85ER]

Cut & paste issues, and general bad grammar regarding the "two main wheels" subject.

I was trying to allude to touching gently first on the aft two main wheels out of six on each side. It came out somewhat confusing after reading it later.

I hope there isn't a essay test in the armed pilot program

 

[jj]

I think the test for pilots should be if you put the eros mask away correctly in less than 5min. you get to have a gun!

 

[Hopeful]

DC10hound:

No. Not on the B767. The main landing gear trucks tilt forward unlike other aircraft. The front four hit the runway first!

 

[Hopeful]

dogdriver:

You're right. I have seen many an aircraft arrive after a several hour trip with an air leak write-up by the crew only to find a hole in the area of a cargo door caused by loading equipment. Now, grant you, I don't know what a sudden bullet hole would do with a fully pressurized cabin at 8 psig. But I tend to agree that it might not cause the sudden decompression of the aircraft.