Machinists Union Update

[colorado_cowboy]

it will be forced on you or you will all be out of a job.

Fliboi,
If a contract is forced on the IAM dont you think its quite possible that you'll be forced out of a job as well? Maybe thats what scares you and a certain captain the most.

Personally I think the IAM will be forced to negotiate with the Company but the membership will turn down whatever offer is presented to them only because they've been lied to so many times in the recent past.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Usfliboi is dead-on accurate in his or her last post.

In regard to the IAM speculators, how do they know what the company's proposal would be since they have not been to the negotiating table? The company has repeatedly said they want to find cost effecitve ways to conduct IAM work in-house, but the IAM has refused the company's offer to meet. Therefore, the company has no choice but to seek to set aside the IAM's contract, which will occur in bankruptcy court.

I agree Usfliboi, this time the IAM could be broken and then represent zero major airline mechanics when its all said and done.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

It's time to stop the rhetoric and fruitless "chest pounding". Any union that does not have a S.1113/S.1114 letter prior to the company entering bankruptcy will get "creamed" period, where the cuts will be much, much more painful.

The court will not side with labor and will protect the debtor and creditors, especially with the Bush Administration and the ATSB involved in the process.

320:

Read the following very closely...

1. The debtor in possession must have made a proposal to the union.

A debtor-in-possession is not a debtor-in-possession until after the BK has been filed.

 

[colorado_cowboy]

I agree Usfliboi, this time the IAM could be broken and then represent zero major airline mechanics when its all said and done.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

If the IAM is broken than the membership is broken, if the membership is broken than whats to stop them from seeking self help, i.e. a strike while in BK? Should that happen US Airways will cease to exist.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Captain your future lies in the hands of an individual(s) who pick up trash and dumps biffy's or by someone who delivers parts to various a/c. You are trying to control a situation that’s uncontrollable and what makes you and the likes of fliboi more desperate is your trying to do it thru a keyboard and a monitor.

 

[700UW]

If the IAM is broken than the membership is broken, if the membership is broken than whats to stop them from seeking self help, i.e. a strike while in BK? Should that happen US Airways will cease to exist.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Captain your future lies in the hands of an individual(s) who pick up trash and dumps biffy's or by someone who delivers parts to various a/c. You are trying to control a situation that’s uncontrollable and what makes you and the likes of fliboi more desperate is your trying to do it thru a keyboard and a monitor.

EXCELLENT POST!

 

[Cfm56]

Not to be insulting but it's a fact --- traditionally mechanics have been tougher than pilots when it comes to negotiations and more willing to take things to the brink because they have less to loose than pilots. When a mechanic moves on to another job turning a wrench for another airline or even a car dealership, his financial loss is far less than when a pilot has to start all over at another company. The % loss is far more for a pilot and they climb to a salary he had when he left his previous airline is far higher considering the time to upgrade and go into larger equipment et al. This is why pilot groups generally are more willing to bend than mechanics.

 

[AP Tech]

Usa320pilot,

If a yes vote from you gaurenteed your furluogh from mainline, in addition, if Mid Atlantic wasn't an option or even if you decided to seek employment with MA, and if hired started as a new hire of the street and your years with USAIRWAYS and your current position now meant nothing, would you still cast the same vote. Just wondering ???

I am waiting to see the answer to this post!!!!! Just give us a simple yes or no!!!! This is the position that many employee's of U are about to be put into!!! And you can disregard the posts about voting no out of hate for the company.

Just give an honest answer to the following question.....Would you vote "Yes" or "No" for concessions if you knew a yes vote would cost you your job with little chance for recall????

 

[Hope777]

If you think the IAM will break, you are mistaken. The IAM brought down one Carrier and it might happen again. Do you really think people will vote out their jobs to save you? And as far as contracts, the COMPANY has yet to HONOR the last ones. CFM56 and Cowboy have both said it, YOUR FUTURE LIES IN THE IAM's HANDS. And besides that, does anyone honestly believe the the CWA will agree to a top pay of $13.01 an hour? With a September deadline looming any guesses why the Company is dragging its feet? BK2 is coming and I would rather take my chaces with the Judge then a Company who FAILS its Employees.

 

[savyinvestor]

USA320 will never give a "yes or no" answer. He will say its too hypothetical and impossible to answer. However, if I were a betting person I would say an honest answer from him would be "NO'. Savy

 

[ClueByFour]

Finally, for anybody to suggest that labor would have any leverage in court for a twice failed company is nonsense. US Airways will compare its labor contracts against the profitable LCC’s and the court will order new contracts to protect cash flow, the debtor, and the creditors, period. Do I like it? No, of course not, but it’s reality.

No, I don't think they'll be doing that.

The most profitable LCC pays it's people better.

Not that it matters. In the event that the company succeeds in abrogating the contract in Chapter 11, the airline and all those who talk about "cross hairs" and "getting creamed" will be "unemployed." The IAM (as it has demostrated in the past) will shut the place down.

(and no, the company cannot prepare for this in any way, because if it does, it cannot pass the "good faith" test necessary for abrogation in the first place).

Colorado Cowboy is spot on.

Ultimately, if you look at what has been presented to the AFA and to the CWA (particularly the latter), there is no reason to vote yes on a contract. It's a lose-lose scenario.

The pilots are the only group with as "far to fall." No amount of "chest thumping" about "cross hairs" is going to change that.

 

[burghlaw1]

The court will not side with labor and will protect the debtor and creditors, especially with the Bush Administration and the ATSB involved in the process.

As a lawyer, I will never "guarantee" how a court will rule, or how a jury will find. Therefore, your guarantee that a bankruptcy court judge "will not side with labor," USA320Pilot, is a little bit disingenuous. Very often, the fact-finder is persuaded by the darndest things--the indignance of a witness, or an obscure fact that doesnt make sense in the context of the entire testimony. There are also additional factors that play into the mix (i.e., the case could be assigned to a pro-labor bankruptcy judge).

There isn't a lot of case law on section 1113 motions to reject collective bargaining agreements. There are some cases that have refused to reject CBA's. It also seems to me that the section was devised to protect the integrity of collective bargaining agreements by allowing the rejection of the agreements only as a last resort "as necessary" to allow a debtor to successfully organize. I keep looking for the remaining $700 million in costs the company says it needs to reorganize (where are they)? I would think that any union defending against a section 1113 motion would focus on (1) where these other cost savings are coming from since they are represented to be "non-labor." If the company hasn't implemented these cost savings that are in their control, then how can they look to reject the labor agreements "as necessary." If the company contends that the savings can only be implemented after rejection of the collective bargaining agreements, then the unions will need to focus upon cost-savings that can be achieved under the existing agreements (many of you have claimed that these cost-savings exist). I also wonder whether cost-savings contingent upon labor concessions aren't, in reality, an additional labor concession (just an undeveloped theory, however).

I would think that both sides have a lot at risk by allowing the court to decide, only because it's an all or nothing proposition. The side with the more persuasive facts is the one that will likely prevail.

And just before anyone gets on my case, too much, on October 22, 2003, I wrongly predicted that Judge Cindrich's preliminary injunction against the Airbus outsourcing would be upheld on appeal, which, I guess, in a roundabout way, proves my point here.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

is there news this hour regarding IAM talking with U? The headline at Philly.com suggests so, but it is subscription only.

 

[Hope777]

burghlaw1, Nice post.

 

[burghlaw1]

is there news this hour regarding IAM talking with U? The headline at Philly.com suggests so, but it is subscription only.

Same news that was in today's Post-Gazette:

Union agrees to talk to US Airways

By Tom Belden

INQUIRER STAFF WRITER


The union representing US Airways mechanics and baggage handlers has taken a small but potentially important step toward giving the beleagured airline concessions it says it needs to survive.

Leaders of the International Association of Machinists, in a statement posted on its Website on Thursday, said they are willing to meet with airline managers about proposals the union says could save the company more than $80 million a year without giving up wages or benefits.

The union previously had refused to talk to the company, calling instead for US Airways to first respond to the union's money-saving suggestions.

US Airways already is negotiating concessions with unions representing pilots, flight attendants and gate and ticket agents that the company says are necessary for it to avoid filing for bankruptcy protection again. It was in bankruptcy from August 2002 through March 2003.

US Airways said it welcomed the opportunity to discuss the union's ideas.

The airline, which carries about two-thirds of the passengers using Philadelphia International Airport, reported a profit of $34 million in the second quarter this year after three consecutive quarterly losses totaling $365 million.


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[NeedForSpeedNFS]

Repeet,

What you have said could not be more far from the truth.

The "and Relateds" have more to lose then the mechanics. And I have to add that in 1992, the "and Relateds" were the mechanics best friend because the contract we voted down was going to really screw the mechanics and I can remember lots of mechanics asking for the "and Related" support to vote it down. Can't say the same of your group, you voted for a contract that gave Utility part-time and in over 40 years that was never in our contract.

Then we had the airbus dispute and Line Utility did 100 times more to support the cause then line mechanics. If you want specifics you know who I am.

And now we come to this, the "and Related" group will be eliminated if the company impliments their transformation plan, and I know where I work it is 99.9% solid against any concessions. And you know where I work has the largest group of "and Relateds"!

This bantering back and forth among the membership is EXACTLY what the company wants to happen!! I have seen this coming for some time, one group blaming the other, or sacrificing another group so that the other may breath another day! The day of reconing is soon upon us!! I sure hope everyone has back-up plans. We can all sit here on these boards and blame management until we are blue in the face, but if ANYONE, ANY GROUP doesn't see the writing on the wall, you truly are living in a fantacy world. As some of you I have talked with know, I am not a "staunch" union man. But, on the other hand, I do believe in certain principals of common decency. This happens to align with the union position of not talking. I agree wholeheartedly!! There is no more to give. We are at a point where this job is not even worth keeping. The "old ways" of the airline industry are over forever, and I feel that EVERYONE should accept that fact! GOOD DAY!!!