Layoff In Mia

Oldweirdharold said:
thanks twu, Just received my latest installment of '' why we're sticking with our union'' and read it with interest, unlike some of your minions that patrol AA destroying all AMFA literature despite a court ruling upholding 1st amendment rights.... Noticed of late teamtwu and cio calling for AMFA to file as they have over 50% of needed craft and class and I am also wondering why in a true democracy where majority decides that you are ignoring the will of the membership.. Over 50% that's a majority have decided to hold you accountable and bring this to a vote, if in fact you are truly unionists instead of obstructionists you'll recognize this.. True strength in numbers would be all AMT's and related being represented by one union, why has afl-cio ignored this for decades?? If you have all the power and are comfortable in your performance as our representative then please list the positive things you've accomplished here and now... The time for healing our craft and class is now, lets dispense with the verbal wars and just get down to business, Looking forward to debates on the issues with equal time for both sides and may the best man win.. Are you ready??

:up: :up: :up: Jim Anderson
Jim;

The truth is that the AFL-CIO has not ignored this.

We should remember that the TWU and the AFL-CIO are not synonomous. While the AFL-CIO can be a valuable assett to any union it is certainly not a good enough reason to stay with a bad union. Its like going to a lousy mechanic because he has Snap-on tools, good tools can help a good mechanic but good tools in the hands of a bad mechanic does not make him any better.

The truth is that the unions involved all know that we would be better off united in one union but none of them is willing to let go of those RLA protected dues. Clearly in order to unite us two of them, if not all three would have to let members go.

Its greed that makes them keep us apart. Workers under the RLA still have to pay dues even if in a RTW state. So airline workers provide a guaranteed supply a dues to these unions who in most other industries must work very hard to stay certified. Even if they do manage to stay certified they may have many members that simply choose not to pay, even if the union fights hard and gets them good wages and benifits. Thats not fair to the unions or the members that pay but its not fair that members are forced to pay dues to a union that they have no control over either. (RTW is not the solution-democratic reform is the solution). The lack of accountability where we can not vote out the leaders or stop paying dues is why our industry has been hit so hard compared to other industries. If workers in this industry were under RTW, which I am no way in favor of, more than likely at least 50% of the members would no longer pay dues, probably more. Why would they pay dues to a union that stood by and said that there was nothing they could do about it while our contract and wages were slashed to bits? If these unions were facing the possibility of no dues they certainly would have come up with some sort of plan to protect us instead of out doing each other with concessions.

Even the cuts were fashioned to minimize the loss of dues to the union. There was a proposal to leave everything the way it was as far as holidays, vacation, sick time ,doubletime, IOD time etc and meet the number with a flat 25% pay cut which the International rejected because dues would have been cut by 25%. The way they did this maximizes our losses while minimizing the loss of dues to the union.

Three years ago I wrote a letter to John Sweeney. I explained to him what I felt was going wrong in our industry and why AMFA had such a strong appeal with line mechanics. I wanted him to pressure the TWU,IAM and IBT to merge their ATDs into one union and allow the seperate class and crafts to make up their own divisions within that union. I mailed the letter on a thursday and the following weds I got a call from the AFL-CIO stating that they agreed with the concept and felt that I should work from within to get these changes as the structure of the AFL-CIO is not top down and they could not do it. THe unions themselves would have to go to them.

I had asked that the AFL-CIO put together a committee to come up with a plan and create a survey to be mailed to every airline worker in an affiliated union to see how the members felt about such a plan. I did this because I doubted that any of the leaders of these unions would be willing to move on a plan that would at the very least upset the apple cart and in the end mean that they would lose their RLA airline workers dues. I felt that most airline workers would favor a plan to unite workers across the industry and that once faced with this from the survey they would be backed into the corner and have to act on it less they be exposed as self-serving.

Since the AFL-CIO did not want to get into this it meant I had to turn my efforts towards lobbying the heads of these unions. So I started to work on Sonny Hall, and copied in Hoffa and Buffenbarger. We had an exchange of letters on this subject, most of which I still have. I was successful in getting him into a corner where he admitted that the idea was valid and suggested that we meet face to face to discuss it. Obviuosly he did not want to create more documentation on the issue. I made the appontment at a time that he said was convenient to him. I was halfway to his office when his secretary called and cancelled the appointment. I let Sonny know that whatever date was convenient to him I would make myself available for a new meeting. He assured me he would set the meeting as soon as possible. He never called. I interpreted this as resistance to the idea.

Without going on and on I will cut to the chase. The blame for us being divided up among three unions that could care less does not lie with the AFL-CIO. The stuff you are getting now from the AFL-CIO is because they are doing what their structure demands it does.Three powerful member unions have requested help to fend off what it claims is a Raid by an outside organization. Its not the AFL-CIOs function to see what is really going on. As far as all that stuff you are getting now from the AFL-CIO regarding AMFA- ignore it, it means nothing.
Our problem is the TWU, not the AFL-CIO. The AFL-CIO is a toool, they are using it as such. In a duel the weapon is not the object of contempt, the holder of the weapon is. Many member unions in the AFL-CIO are craft unions but they are only getting one side of the story. One day we will be able to tell our side and attacks on the AFL-CIO just make the barrier harder to overcome. We want to unite our class and craft into one union. We should support the efforts of others to do likewise. If we are successful all the other unions will see where we are coming from and where we look to go. We want one union for all mechanics. Lets stay focused on that.
 
What? Would you, Twuer, mind listing point by point exactly what contracts and what representation?
Do not delay, for many here that would like to know.

Well, where do I begin? Let's start with the fact that the TWU has been in existance in Tulsa for 45 years. I won't, for verbatim, recite the numerous contracts to you when you are more than able to do your own homework. It would take me far more time that I want to spend with you to do so. I can tell by reading what's on these boards that you haven't done a bit of "homework" for yourselves. In Washington DC the TWU is one of the most well respected union organizations in the country. How else would the TWU have its representatives testifying before Congress and other over-site organizations with respect to the welfare of working men and women of the aviation industry? You guys can't even get a single endorsement from anyone in Washington. Wonder why that is????? Most recently, in 2001 the TWU negotiated the best contract in the industry, whether you guys believe it or not. Now, that being said as a fact and reported by several articles across the country (of which I will not produce for you so don't ask, do your own homework), I'm sure you'll say that AMFA was the reason we got that contract (like you've done on numerous occasions). WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! The pilots were the ones who went in to negotiation first and got a huge raise, etc. Not to mention that AMFA financed their raise at NWA with $300 million in concessions they gave the company. I have always wondered why you give credit to AMFA for something the TWU did for their own union members. Did AMFA members vote for you? NO! Makes no sense what you say. AMFA didn't start anything but a down turn for this industry. They farmout more work and layoff more people. What's the layoff number at NWA now. . .4500 and climbing? That's impressive!! I believe that is approx 50% of the maintenance and related work force. Imagine that. Are you going to deny that too boys? You want proof of what the TWU has done well look at it for yourself. Do your own comparisons. Why do you need me or any other TWU supporter to tell you what you should already know. I'm sure you will gripe and criticize about my reply. I expect it. You guys don't want to hear the truth. "You can't handle the truth!!!!!!!!" The TWU is strong. We have more clout then AMFA. And like it or not that clout is needed. AMFA hasn't proven that they can help the aviation industry. What has the TWU done for me?. . .provided a good living, job security, respect on the job, affordable health insurance, a voice in Washington. These an many other things that aren't available to many, many americans. Oh, and if you haven't read the Tulsa World editorial today (in the Opinion secton) it's called leadership.

Okay, spin away boys. Tear me part like normal. I have responded accordingly (not quite as long as Bob I will admit ;) ). I do look forward to the debates. AMFA doesn't stand a chance. I have said it many times before, AMFA comes in when times get tough and promise to "save the world". They have yet to do that. AMFA would be detrimental if it got in at AA. That would be a sad, sad day for many hard working men and women.
 
Well let me be the first to hand it to you twuer.

Well, where do I begin? Let's start with the fact that the TWU has been in existance in Tulsa for 45 years. I won't, for verbatim, recite the numerous contracts to you when you are more than able to do your own homework. It would take me far more time that I want to spend with you to do so. I can tell by reading what's on these boards that you haven't done a bit of "homework" for yourselves.
45 years, wow, it took 45 years to become this corrupt? Homework? lmao, we will see!

In Washington DC the TWU is one of the most well respected union organizations in the country. How else would the TWU have its representatives testifying before Congress and other over-site organizations with respect to the welfare of working men and women of the aviation industry? You guys can't even get a single endorsement from anyone in Washington. Wonder why that is?????
And may I ask what good this has done???????? We do realize the twu is a suck up organization and all it has gotten for it is bruises on the back of it's head. Lets see, who did we have down at the local union hall here not to long ago? lmao again.

I'm sure you'll say that AMFA was the reason we got that contract (like you've done on numerous occasions). WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! The pilots were the ones who went in to negotiation first and got a huge raise, etc. Not to mention that AMFA financed their raise at NWA with $300 million in concessions they gave the company. I have always wondered why you give credit to AMFA for something the TWU did for their own union members.

Well you did get something right and it will be said again, the twu received a contract that was the effects of AMFA's contract at NW. I totally disagree that our contract even came close to AMFA's. The paid lunch on second and third shifts are worth more than 2$ an hour all by itself. Here is the NW contract, now do your homework!!! Why is it you people never show any factual material?
Northwest Airlines Contract
hmmm, maybe you should talk with your cohorts about admitting the pilots did well because they are a stand alone union not affiliated with the afl-cio. I am sure they would not approve of your response!

Did AMFA members vote for you? NO! Makes no sense what you say. AMFA didn't start anything but a down turn for this industry. They farmout more work and layoff more people. What's the layoff number at NWA now. . .4500 and climbing? That's impressive!! I believe that is approx 50% of the maintenance and related work force. Imagine that. Are you going to deny that too boys? You want proof of what the TWU has done well look at it for yourself. Do your own comparisons. Why do you need me or any other TWU supporter to tell you what you should already know. I'm sure you will gripe and criticize about my reply. I expect it. You guys don't want to hear the truth. "You can't handle the truth!!!!!!!!" The TWU is strong. We have more clout then AMFA. And like it or not that clout is needed. AMFA hasn't proven that they can help the aviation industry.

Oh, now it's AMFA's fault for the downturn in the industry. Don't you think that is spinning it just a little far? rotflmao You must think AMFA is mighty powerful!!! Sorry, I know AMFA is strong but, just not that strong. lol I hate to tell you this but, no union wants work to go out the door, and no union can send work out the door, only the company can do that! It always amazes me how the twu numbers change daily of how many workers are laid of at NW. I saw in the paper the TWU said it was 68%. A few times I have heard all of the maintenance work was gone. Can't you people do a little homework? The number is 2,808 and on the contrary work is coming back to NW as an arbitrator ruled that two stations be manned by AMFA employees at PDX and PHX. I see you are talking about your clout again, hope it does somebody some good because it never has for our Craft and Class.

What has the TWU done for me?. . .provided a good living, job security, respect on the job, affordable health insurance, a voice in Washington. These an many other things that aren't available to many, many americans. Oh, and if you haven't read the Tulsa World editorial today (in the Opinion secton) it's called leadership.

Are you sure it was the twu that provided you a wage or was it the company? Oh I am sorry again it was the twu paying you officers pay and again that is why you are here just like hubby. Please spell Americans with a capital A, have some respect anyway! I have read it and expect to get more cards signed because of it. Every time you people spin up things we always get more. I know that was targeted to the other half of family members and the PR firm probably suggested it but, don’t you think that will back fire on you?

Okay, spin away boys. Tear me part like normal. I have responded accordingly (not quite as long as Bob I will admit ). I do look forward to the debates. AMFA doesn't stand a chance. I have said it many times before, AMFA comes in when times get tough and promise to "save the world". They have yet to do that. AMFA would be detrimental if it got in at AA. That would be a sad, sad day for many hard working men and women.

So you are saying the twu accepts the debate! This is great news; I can't wait either and look forward to seeing you there. I wonder if people thought the end was near when the twu raided the mechanics association at AA in 1945.
 
Rusty said:
Well let me be the first to hand it to you twuer.


45 years, wow, it took 45 years to become this corrupt? Homework? lmao, we will see!


And may I ask what good this has done???????? We do realize the twu is a suck up organization and all it has gotten for it is bruises on the back of it's head. Lets see, who did we have down at the local union hall here not to long ago? lmao again.



Well you did get something right and it will be said again, the twu received a contract that was the effects of AMFA's contract at NW. I totally disagree that our contract even came close to AMFA's. The paid lunch on second and third shifts are worth more than 2$ an hour all by itself. Here is the NW contract, now do your homework!!! Why is it you people never show any factual material?
Northwest Airlines Contract
hmmm, maybe you should talk with your cohorts about admitting the pilots did well because they are a stand alone union not affiliated with the afl-cio. I am sure they would not approve of your response!



Oh, now it's AMFA's fault for the downturn in the industry. Don't you think that is spinning it just a little far? rotflmao You must think AMFA is mighty powerful!!! Sorry, I know AMFA is strong but, just not that strong. lol I hate to tell you this but, no union wants work to go out the door, and no union can send work out the door, only the company can do that! It always amazes me how the twu numbers change daily of how many workers are laid of at NW. I saw in the paper the TWU said it was 68%. A few times I have heard all of the maintenance work was gone. Can't you people do a little homework? The number is 2,808 and on the contrary work is coming back to NW as an arbitrator ruled that two stations be manned by AMFA employees at PDX and PHX. I see you are talking about your clout again, hope it does somebody some good because it never has for our Craft and Class.



Are you sure it was the twu that provided you a wage or was it the company? Oh I am sorry again it was the twu paying you officers pay and again that is why you are here just like hubby. Please spell Americans with a capital A, have some respect anyway! I have read it and expect to get more cards signed because of it. Every time you people spin up things we always get more. I know that was targeted to the other half of family members and the PR firm probably suggested it but, don’t you think that will back fire on you?



So you are saying the twu accepts the debate! This is great news; I can't wait either and look forward to seeing you there. I wonder if people thought the end was near when the twu raided the mechanics association at AA in 1945.

I'm sorry you are so disgruntled and mislead Rusty. Tell me, what are the real facts on AMFA? Or do you even know? I think if you did know the truth you wouldn't be so quick to defend them. And your comments about not needing political clout. . .you've got to be kidding. I guess ole "Dubya" or whomever might be in the White House will just give poor little ole you what you want with no voice. Ain't happenin brother. History will tell you that. And why do you guys keep thinking that I'm a paid TWU member? I'm in it just like you are. I just participate a little more than you do. But you know what. . .it's kind of fun to watch you guys squirm. :p

Just curious, when we did get the industry leading contract where the heck was AMFA?????????????????????? Why weren't they trying so hard then to get in at AA????????????????????? Makes you wonder doesn't it Rusty????????????????? Can you answer that????????????????????????????? :huh: :( :huh:

You have your NWA numbers wrongs partner. Sorry. AMFA negotiated the contract with the farmout language in it. Since the 38% rate is based on "labor dollars", when and if the mechanics get a pay increase it allows NWA to out source more work. If that's not bad enough, NWA has notified AMFA of their intentions to not only continue but to increase the farming out of maintenance and AMFA has no power, let me repeat, no power to fight it. Bummer huh?? :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that amfa only "raises it's head" and attempts to enlist during rough times in our industry. amfa feeds upon the disappointment of members, never growing on their own achievements, this is old news and amfa's way of life.
 
TeamTWU said:
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that amfa only "raises it's head" and attempts to enlist during rough times in our industry. amfa feeds upon the disappointment of members, never growing on their own achievements, this is old news and amfa's way of life.
You know TeamTWU, I have to agree with you in some respects of your statement. It did take bad times to see the true colors of the TWU. When the going gets tough the twu stays home! If the twu had changed from within and had some decent leadership they would not be in the predicament they are in. Did you vote for Jim Little or any other international representatives? No you did not! Can you recall any international officer? No you cannot! I realize you are going to say this is AMFA's fault or the memberships fault but, one must accept the bed they made and then accept the outcome from the backlash. This is also called accountability; learn this word it will be used again!!!

AMFA has accomplished more for our Craft and Class in the last 4 years than the twu has destroyed in the last 20 years. Those are the facts!!!
 
twuer said:
What? Would you, Twuer, mind listing point by point exactly what contracts and what representation?
Do not delay, for many here that would like to know.

Well, where do I begin? Let's start with the fact that the TWU has been in existance in Tulsa for 45 years. I won't, for verbatim, recite the numerous contracts to you when you are more than able to do your own homework. It would take me far more time that I want to spend with you to do so. I can tell by reading what's on these boards that you haven't done a bit of "homework" for yourselves. In Washington DC the TWU is one of the most well respected union organizations in the country. How else would the TWU have its representatives testifying before Congress and other over-site organizations with respect to the welfare of working men and women of the aviation industry? You guys can't even get a single endorsement from anyone in Washington. Wonder why that is????? Most recently, in 2001 the TWU negotiated the best contract in the industry, whether you guys believe it or not. Now, that being said as a fact and reported by several articles across the country (of which I will not produce for you so don't ask, do your own homework), I'm sure you'll say that AMFA was the reason we got that contract (like you've done on numerous occasions). WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! The pilots were the ones who went in to negotiation first and got a huge raise, etc. Not to mention that AMFA financed their raise at NWA with $300 million in concessions they gave the company. I have always wondered why you give credit to AMFA for something the TWU did for their own union members. Did AMFA members vote for you? NO! Makes no sense what you say. AMFA didn't start anything but a down turn for this industry. They farmout more work and layoff more people. What's the layoff number at NWA now. . .4500 and climbing? That's impressive!! I believe that is approx 50% of the maintenance and related work force. Imagine that. Are you going to deny that too boys? You want proof of what the TWU has done well look at it for yourself. Do your own comparisons. Why do you need me or any other TWU supporter to tell you what you should already know. I'm sure you will gripe and criticize about my reply. I expect it. You guys don't want to hear the truth. "You can't handle the truth!!!!!!!!" The TWU is strong. We have more clout then AMFA. And like it or not that clout is needed. AMFA hasn't proven that they can help the aviation industry. What has the TWU done for me?. . .provided a good living, job security, respect on the job, affordable health insurance, a voice in Washington. These an many other things that aren't available to many, many americans. Oh, and if you haven't read the Tulsa World editorial today (in the Opinion secton) it's called leadership.

Okay, spin away boys. Tear me part like normal. I have responded accordingly (not quite as long as Bob I will admit ;) ). I do look forward to the debates. AMFA doesn't stand a chance. I have said it many times before, AMFA comes in when times get tough and promise to "save the world". They have yet to do that. AMFA would be detrimental if it got in at AA. That would be a sad, sad day for many hard working men and women.
Wow twuer, you are twu demented beyond compare. Lets start with your first sentence. "The twu has been in existance in Tulsa for 45 years". So? I guess Tulsa is the only station that matters to you? It figures. The Local 514 is like Mecca of the Bus, its the only one that matters at AA to the International, I guess its because all the others are AMFA (except MCI of course). Masters of the Universe, thats the twu and the Local 514. I wish all of the "I got mine" twu 514 members in Tulsa had to go work the line for a while. It will help lift the fog you people are in

We have done many hours of homework on the twu, and its mostly a sad history lesson from 1983 to present. We've been living the twu nightmare for far too long, nearly 15 years too long myself. The twu has done nothing in the last 20 years except bring the AA Aircraft Mechanic to our collective knees, which is where we are now, last in the industry. I'm sure you will still choose to ignore all the concessions we have had since 1983, the year your twu started the industry on the downward trend. We are just lucky to have a job, right?

The twu has what in Washington? Respect you say? Please tell me your joking! I'd say Sunny Hall and his company union are probably the biggest laughing stock in Washington and New York. Local 100, the largest in the twu, is helping to throw that lying bum to the curb. Could you imagine the twu up against a PEB? That would be another major league rout of the twu. AMFA came out of a PEB with the best contract in the industry, one which the twu stalled ours for, and then still could not match it.

Your claim that NWA has 4500 mechanic laidoff is another baseless lie. They have approximately 2808, of which two arbitration cases for 2000 jobs have been heard. If your still counting those that got to follow their work from ATL to MSP, then you better adjust your numbers. The twu continuous lie that AMFA caused the ATL base to close is more utter nonsense. The twu could not have stopped it anymore than AMFA could. It was a NWA business desision. Thanks to AMFA's contract, those mechanics that chose to, could go to MSP.

The twu is weak and divided, and its the twu Internationals own fault . Too many twu members have tried the twu "change from with" with no success. The twu targets them as hostile and uses its "kangaroo courts" to punish and remove them. Therefore, there is no choice left but too REMOVE THE TWU AS OUR BARGAINING AGENT We will not stop, until the twu is out. The fact is that 5 airlines have removed the "industrial union albatross" from around their necks. Others like Mesaba , ATA, and ACA have brought in AMFA as their first union. Why not the twu, the iam, or the teamsters? The industrial union cannot and will not do the job for the mechanic craft and class. They have proven that fact beyond any doubt.

The fact is AMFA has 8 airlines and 22000 members. The largest aircraft mechanics union in the world, bar none.

There is nothing you can do to stop us from leaving this poor excuse for a union twuer. You can come on this BB and spew the same old lies, it does not matter anymore. You can't stop the way the industry is moving, and that is to AMFA.

Will you spout your lies at the debate at the Brady on January 17, 2004?

WE SHALL SEE. MAKE SURE YOU SHOW UP!!!!
 
twuer said:
I'm sorry you are so disgruntled and mislead Rusty. Tell me, what are the real facts on AMFA? Or do you even know? I think if you did know the truth you wouldn't be so quick to defend them. And your comments about not needing political clout. . .you've got to be kidding. I guess ole "Dubya" or whomever might be in the White House will just give poor little ole you what you want with no voice. Ain't happenin brother. History will tell you that. And why do you guys keep thinking that I'm a paid TWU member? I'm in it just like you are. I just participate a little more than you do. But you know what. . .it's kind of fun to watch you guys squirm. :p

Just curious, when we did get the industry leading contract where the heck was AMFA?????????????????????? Why weren't they trying so hard then to get in at AA????????????????????? Makes you wonder doesn't it Rusty????????????????? Can you answer that????????????????????????????? :huh: :( :huh:

You have your NWA numbers wrongs partner. Sorry. AMFA negotiated the contract with the farmout language in it. Since the 38% rate is based on "labor dollars", when and if the mechanics get a pay increase it allows NWA to out source more work. If that's not bad enough, NWA has notified AMFA of their intentions to not only continue but to increase the farming out of maintenance and AMFA has no power, let me repeat, no power to fight it. Bummer huh?? :eek: :eek: :eek:
How about you march up and tell Mr. Bush you have a lot of political clout and you want to use some of it. Please come back a give us the details of what he said!!!

We can do that or we can use the power inherently vested upon unions rather than trying to snuggle up to the company. I realize this is a new concept for the twu and no one will ever convince you that there is power in our right to strike but, I will emphatically disagree. Here you go, try reading the PEB Statements, Transcripts and Exhibits from NW.

http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/08_NWA_Archi...WAarchive2.html
 
You didn't answer my other questions boys. What's wrong. . .scared?

Just curious, when we did get the industry leading contract where the heck was AMFA?????????????????????? Why weren't they trying so hard then to get in at AA????????????????????? Makes you wonder doesn't it Rusty????????????????? Can you answer that?????????????????????????????
 
twuer said:
Okay, spin away boys. Tear me part like normal. I have responded accordingly (not quite as long as Bob I will admit ;) ). I do look forward to the debates. AMFA doesn't stand a chance. I have said it many times before, AMFA comes in when times get tough and promise to "save the world". They have yet to do that. AMFA would be detrimental if it got in at AA. That would be a sad, sad day for many hard working men and women.
"In Washington DC the TWU is one of the most well respected union organizations in the country. How else would the TWU have its representatives testifying before Congress and other over-site organizations with respect to the welfare of working men and women of the aviation industry? "


Well perhaps its because Sonny Hall has enough time and enough money, since he is not fighting for his members and gets $200,000/yr for doing nothing, to be the head of the TTD, a non-salaried position. Maybe they like him because he tells them what they want to hear.


"You guys can't even get a single endorsement from anyone in Washington."


And a lot of good that has done for us.

"Most recently, in 2001 the TWU negotiated the best contract in the industry, whether you guys believe it or not."

Oh really? Do you mean that we no longer had the lowest paid mechanics-OSMs, part time language, unpaid lunch, cross utilization, prefunding and got R&D and deicing back? I dont remember any of that. It must have been since the one contract that you claimed that was good the TWU could not even keep in place for its full term!



"Now, that being said as a fact and reported by several articles across the country (of which I will not produce for you so don't ask, do your own homework), I'm sure you'll say that AMFA was the reason we got that contract (like you've done on numerous occasions). WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! The pilots were the ones who went in to negotiation first and got a huge raise, etc."


"FACT" Why because you, whoever you are because you choose to post under an alias says so? Sorry but without supporting evidence your claims mean nothing. Even if articles in print do make such claims what difference does that make? The same medium also often claims that unions are no longer needed, is that a "fact" also? Being in print does not automatically make something credible, especially when the source will not identify themselves.

The pilots often got huge raises, it rarely had any effect on other workers. How come our stores guys and Fleet service guys did not also get the raise we got? What we got was based upon what other airlines were paying their workers who did similar jobs. Thats why our Stores guys came out with the smallest increase of all the workgroups. How many times was the pilots at UAL brought up at the 2001 negotiations? How many times was the mechanics at NWA brought up? So our increase was not cased upon what the pilots at UAL got, it was based on what the mechanics at NWA got. Nice try.

"Not to mention that AMFA financed their raise at NWA with $300 million in concessions they gave the company."

OK and how much have all the concessions that the TWU gave AA been worth? In the billions? Employee paid medical, prefunding, R&D, OSMs, Junior Fleet Service clerks, outsourcing of whole departments, long progressions to top pay, Junior mechanics, B scale, when you start to try and calculate the productivity improvements and out right concessions it boggles the mind how much in concessions the TWU has given AA. The un-paid lunch alone amounts to around $400 million. B-scale is even harder to figure in but its safe to say that for each employee hired under it they lost about $100,000 compared to a worker at the old progression. The concessions that we had given to AA prior to the debacle this year was well in the billions of dollars. What AMFA did over at NWA was bring the wage from the best the IAM could do of around $29 per hour to over $35/hr. However the TWU brought it right back down. At $35/hr we were only just at where we should have been when adjusted for inflation, but still less all the other concessions that the TWU led the way with.

" AMFA didn't start anything but a down turn for this industry."

What are you saying that fair wages for mechanics are responsible for the downturn in the industry? The RTW must love you!

"They farmout more work and layoff more people. What's the layoff number at NWA now. . .4500 and climbing? That's impressive!! I believe that is approx 50% of the maintenance and related work force."

The fact is that our numbers as far as farm outs are not accurate since only that work that is sent to ther companies is considred "farmed out" and our scope clause is crap. We have mechanics in London that are AA employees who have not taken any paycuts, still get all their holidays and vacation and top out at around $20,000/yr more than us-AND THEY ARE NON-UNION! So the best paid mechanics with the best benifits at AA are non-union mechanics. Nice job TWU! NWA always laid off big time at every downturn. I would rather be laid off periodically than make less money all the time-good times and bad. Over the term of our contract a NWA mechanic who is working will make around $120,000 more than we will. So even if he is laid off, he will likely still make more than we will over the term of this agreement.

"Do you want proof of what the TWU has done well look at it for yourself. Do your own comparisons. Why do you need me or any other TWU supporter to tell you what you should already know. I'm sure you will gripe and criticize about my reply. I expect it. You guys don't want to hear the truth. "You can't handle the truth!!!!!!!!" The TWU is strong."

Its easy to make statements, a little more difficult to back them up. Obviously you cant back yours up.

"We have more clout then AMFA."

Not for long.

Tell us what this "clout" has done to improve the lives of airline workers over the last twenty years. Dont tell us save jobs. WalMart provides plenty of jobs, does that make Wal-Mart the friend of labor?

When the TWU loses AA, not just to AMFA but the AGW as well they will be reduced by nearly 1/3. AMFA will likely surpass it in membership by the end of the decade.

"AMFA hasn't proven that they can help the aviation industry. "

And the TWU has proven that it cant help the industries workers. That is the unions primary responsibility. The fact is despite its periodic "crisis's" the industry continues to expand and become even more profitable. The workforce on the other hand has seen a continued decline in living standards thanks to unions that only want to see more dues payers instead of better living standards for the workers.


"What has the TWU done for me?. . .provided a good living, job security, respect on the job, affordable health insurance, a voice in Washington. These an many other things that aren't available to many, many americans. Oh, and if you haven't read the Tulsa World editorial today (in the Opinion secton) it's called leadership. "

Well out here on the line the TWU has ruined our careers. We work odd hours, holidays, weekends in inclement conditions for wages that are far below locally comparable wages at our skill level. We are losing people permanently because they see that this place has no future for them-thanks to the TWU. It is the money that is made out here that allows you to live your comfortable existance. Its true that many other Americans dont have what is available to us, but many do, and most of them do not have to work three hours a month to pay a union that refuses to fight to get us a decent contract. The fact is that this Union refuses to lead. Leading means you go in first. The fact is our "so called" leaders did not lose any of what they were telling us to give up. They have had a lot of practice at this, the TWU has been doing that at AA and every other carrier for 20 years.

You are right though. The TWU has done a lot for the airline industry. They have been more successful at lowering wages and working conditions than even Frank Lorenzo or Aircon. The industry must be saying "Keep up the good work TWU! Our favorite union!"
 
Bob's quote. . .
"FACT" Why because you, whoever you are because you choose to post under an alias says so? Sorry but without supporting evidence your claims mean nothing. Even if articles in print do make such claims what difference does that make? The same medium also often claims that unions are no longer needed, is that a "fact" also? Being in print does not automatically make something credible, especially when the source will not identify themselves.

I debate with you and you won't even take the challenge Bob. What differnece does posting under an alias make? NONE!!!!!!! Ask a few of your AMFA boys that too. And you support evidence in all your posts?? Again, a hypocritical response from an AMFA supporter. That's why I don't for this for long. I debate you and you criticize the way I do it. You can't take the fact that we are right and you are wrong. You are still mad that you lost the vote, you're still mad that you got removed from office. Get over it already! AMFA will lose again and we will get on about the business at hand. Restoring our union from folks like you who choose to break it down and separate it.

TWUER's previous quote. . .
I'm sure you will gripe and criticize about my reply. I expect it. You guys don't want to hear the truth. "You can't handle the truth!!!!!!!!" The TWU is strong."

See, I told you!!
 
twuer said:
Bob's quote. . .
"FACT" Why because you, whoever you are because you choose to post under an alias says so? Sorry but without supporting evidence your claims mean nothing. Even if articles in print do make such claims what difference does that make? The same medium also often claims that unions are no longer needed, is that a "fact" also? Being in print does not automatically make something credible, especially when the source will not identify themselves.

I debate with you and you won't even take the challenge Bob. What differnece does posting under an alias make? NONE!!!!!!! Ask a few of your AMFA boys that too. And you support evidence in all your posts?? Again, a hypocritical response from an AMFA supporter. That's why I don't for this for long. I debate you and you criticize the way I do it. You can't take the fact that we are right and you are wrong. You are still mad that you lost the vote, you're still mad that you got removed from office. Get over it already! AMFA will lose again and we will get on about the business at hand. Restoring our union from folks like you who choose to break it down and separate it.

TWUER's previous quote. . .
I'm sure you will gripe and criticize about my reply. I expect it. You guys don't want to hear the truth. "You can't handle the truth!!!!!!!!" The TWU is strong."

See, I told you!!
Is that the best you can do?

It does make a difference when someone posts under an alias claiming to give "facts' if he fails to give suporting evidence. If you wont state who you are or where you got these "facts" then how can anyone say they are credible? Credible in what way? Credible in that the person who is saying it does not want to own up to saying it or present evidence that would support his "facts"?

Without evidence they are merely the opinions of someone who lacks conviction in those opinions since he refuses to associate himself with his statements.

I'll admit that I have put forward many opinions, opinions based upon observations, experiences and whenever possible - facts.

What do you base your opinions/"facts" on?

By the way I've anwered your questions yet you still wont answer mine despite the "fact" that you claim that I avoid the issues. Why is that? You keep going on with personal attacks and then complain that people attack you, isnt that hypocritical?

Again, a few more issue based questions;

What is wrong with the concept of uniting all the aircraft mechanics under one union?

Do you believe that over the last twenty years we have lost a significant amount of benifits and purchasing power?

Would you agree that the problem that we have is systemic-it exists industry-wide?

Would you agree that more than likely the solution to a systemic problem requires systemic action?

Has the TWU, IAM and IBT, despite the fact that represent the majority of unionized workers in this industry developed a plan to approach this systemic problem that has been lowering our real wages and benifits for at least twenty years?

Can you give specific actions that members can take to change things from within?

Can you tell me how such specific actions that result in change from within can address the systemic problems that workers face within this industry?

Can you give us a number of how many people occupy jobs at AA that should be at an A&P rate of pay but are not due to the fact that the TWU agreed to transfer this work out of our class and craft? How many more mechanics would we need systemwide if we still did R&D and how many more A&P mechanics would we have without the creation of OSMs?

Thats a start. If you address mine, I'll address yours. So far its been pretty much one way with me addressing your "issues".

By the way have you given the guy who started this thread the info he asked for. He is after all paying the TWU.
 

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