Layoff In Mia

[Bob Owens]

Buck, you take me too seriously man.

We take our professoin very seriously. Why do you think we take the time out of our busy schedules to try to debate with you AMFA boys. We have seen the damage that AMFA does. We don't want any part of AMFA.

And honestly, I would rather be credited with sarcasm than with making accusations and personal attacks.

And what exactly is your profession?

Hopefully you guys get your wish and you dont get any part of AMFA, however the mechanics at AA are going AMFA.

Other than raising wages what damage has the AMFA done to the profession?

Contracting out? Up until 2001 who was the leader among the majors in contracting out?- the TWU represented AA. Other airlines had to go bankrupt to get a fraction of what the TWU gave away to AA over the last twenty years.

It would be interesting to see a comparasion of A&Ps vs RPMs in the industry.

Now if you want to talk about the TWU thats another story.

The TWU was the first union to transfer R&D away from A&P mechanics. This hurt the profession of A&P mechanics for as any unionist knows you always fight to keep work. The TWU took it away from A&Ps and gave it to other TWU members.


The TWU was the first union to transfer Deicing away from A&P mechanics.This hurt the profession of A&P mechanics for as any unionist knows you always fight to keep work. The TWU took it away from A&Ps and gave it to other TWU members.



The TWU was the first union to create a new subclass of mechanics. This further diluted the demand for A&P mechanics. As anyone knows reduced demand is never good for the supplier-us. However to the TWU this meant more members since AA could now pay rates that made outsourcing uneconomical. Once again the TWU took work away from A&Ps and gave it to other TWU members, many of whom would like to be paid as an A&P but since this work is no longer considered A&P work they have to setttle for the lower pay.

So its not the power of the union that keeps work in house, its the ability of the company to lower costs as if there was no union that keeps the work "in the TWU house, but not in the A&P house". The TWU does not fight to keep work in house they submit and beg. There is quite a difference. Fighting is "That is OUR work, ship it out and we will shut you down", the TWU does not do that. Instead they get bad deals and push them through "without further ratification because the company was threatening bankruptcy and if we didnt take this they would take even more, boo hoo, there is nothing we can do" (with over $1billion in cash and the summer approaching, 4 months later they were showing a profit). Then years later when the storm has passed and the company is rolling in record profits the TWU says "dont blame us, you guys voted for it", just like in 95 and all the other contracts since 1980.

What is really galling about the TWU ATD is that they always blame the members for their failures. In my time here the TWU only once recomended that we reject a contract, and it was. Then they came back and brought back a worse deal and said to vote yes, and it was. In fact over the last twenty years the membership has always followed the "lead" of the International. So what is with this "the members are to blame because they dont get involved" crap? Then when the members complain that they were led the wrong way the International says "You voted for it", mildly translated " You trusted us and you got screwed, thats what you get for trusting us. But 'I GOT MINE'".

Its not unreasonable for union members to trust their union. In fact its desirable. But when a union comes back with answers like "you voted for it", and goes on and on about the membership not being supportive of the union as the reason for our decline, one has to wonder what is going on? How many times can they pull this and still expect trust?

With the TWU "leaders" can take this attitude where they tell us to accept something then blame us for following their advice because we have no recourse. WE cant vote them out. Instead we are allowed to only vote for Local leaders. Those leaders in turn can be removed by the International if they dont fall in line. So the members have no recourse.

So with the TWU we not only have a union that consistantly attacks and degrades our profession but they are also unaccountable.

We need a union that will FIGHTfor our profession and have leadership that can be held accountable for what they tell us we should accept.

We need AMFA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Why go to the local, all this information should be on JETNET just like your contract book.....

Only a company union like the TWU would allow the company to put the contract on the company controlled and monitored Jet Net instead of giving the members hard copies.


Now the company knows who looks at what articles of the contract and how often. This is another means by which the union is giving away information to the company.

Something could happen, and the company could see if the person involved is checking on his rights by reading the contract. For all we know they could be compiling data where they classify members by how often and what articles of the contract they are reading.

 

[twuer]

Why go to the local, all this information should be on JETNET just like your contract book.....

Only a company union like the TWU would allow the company to put the contract on the company controlled and monitored Jet Net instead of giving the members hard copies.


Now the company knows who looks at what articles of the contract and how often. This is another means by which the union is giving away information to the company.

Something could happen, and the company could see if the person involved is checking on his rights by reading the contract. For all we know they could be compiling data where they classify members by how often and what articles of the contract they are reading.

I'm a bit worried about you Bob. You're sounding a bit paranoid. I guess the men in white jackets will come right behind the company men huh? h34r:

Come on Bob. You are getting absolutley nothing accomplished on these boards. There are a hand full of AMFA supporters here and a hand full of TWU supporters as well. I left these boards for a while because I got tired of reading the same old stuff. "Without further ratification", TWU RATS, TWU Stooges, over and over and over. I come back and you're still talking about the same stuff. Nothing new, just a few new players is all. All singin' the same song and dancin' the same dance.

I'll finish the few posts I started then "I'll be seein' you in, all the familiar places." Oops, sorry, got a bit carried away with myself.
I have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Dan Cunningham]

Yes, Bob, you should just quit evidencing issues that can't cavalierly be explained away by twugooer. Perhaps we should just all learn to go a grovellin and beggin like those true blue twugoo believers do. Lets not enter into any formidable debate about the true issues surrounding why we have the most abhorrable CONTRACT in the whole of the aviation industry. Lets just keep believin becuz my pappy and grandpappy tole me the twu is the only game in town becuz the other option was sloppin dust to hogs just this side of the depression! I'll be teachin my chillen about hows great the twgoo is toooo!

Have a Happy, but just a little poorer, Holiday Season

Dan Cunningham
aka "The Company Man"

 

[JUSTAMECHANIC]

I started this topic to find answers about how many mechanics got a layoff in MIA and how many have recall rights.

Hi ,Dan
I would ask you but the TWU thinks you are wrong about every thing.

from the "can man" :huh:

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm a bit worried about you Bob. You're sounding a bit paranoid. I guess the men in white jackets will come right behind the company men huh? h34r:

Come on Bob. You are getting absolutley nothing accomplished on these boards. There are a hand full of AMFA supporters here and a hand full of TWU supporters as well. I left these boards for a while because I got tired of reading the same old stuff. "Without further ratification", TWU RATS, TWU Stooges, over and over and over. I come back and you're still talking about the same stuff. Nothing new, just a few new players is all. All singin' the same song and dancin' the same dance.

I'll finish the few posts I started then "I'll be seein' you in, all the familiar places." Oops, sorry, got a bit carried away with myself.
I have bigger fish to fry. [/QUOTE]
I'll bet you are.

If I'm getting nothing accomplished then why are you here? These posts obviously mean something because it was solely on the basis of posts on this bulletin board that the TWU removed me from office.

Even if only one person out there is reading this I still feel its worthwile. Actually there is plenty of new stuff, you just choose to ignore it.

I hear the the AGW is starting to take off here in JFK. So I guess those copies I handed out did not end up in the pail. Lets see ORD, DFW, MIA , now JFK. Gee how are you going to fight the AGW? You dont have a huge concentration of fleet service workers in a super low cost area like Tulsa or KC to hold up the AGW. Looks like you do have bigger fish to fry!

You claim you want to debate, well lets start one. "Whose fault is it that our wages and benifits over the last twenty years has been in decline, by over 30% when compared to the CPI, since the early eighties, the members or the leaders?

By the way this thread was started by a dues payer requesting information. Have you provided it or at least steered him in the right direction yet? Is simple information from a dues paying member too much to expect? Or are you Too busy engaging in unproductive discussion?

 

[twuer]

I started this topic to find answers about how many mechanics got a layoff in MIA and how many have recall rights.

Hi ,Dan
I would ask you but the TWU thinks you are wrong about every thing.

from the "can man" :huh:

Sorry Justamechanic, got off track a bit. These AMFA boys get me started and I have to run my pie hole a bit.

I have a call in to someone who might be able to answer your question. I can't promise that I will find out exact numbers but I am strill trying. I"ll do my best for ya'.

Happy Holidays!

 

[twuer]

Yes, Bob, you should just quit evidencing issues that can't cavalierly be explained away by twugooer. Perhaps we should just all learn to go a grovellin and beggin like those true blue twugoo believers do. Lets not enter into any formidable debate about the true issues surrounding why we have the most abhorrable CONTRACT in the whole of the aviation industry. Lets just keep believin becuz my pappy and grandpappy tole me the twu is the only game in town becuz the other option was sloppin dust to hogs just this side of the depression! I'll be teachin my chillen about hows great the twgoo is toooo!

Have a Happy, but just a little poorer, Holiday Season

Dan Cunningham
aka "The Company Man"

Hey Dan,

Glad to see you. Just a quick question for you. . .What happened with the dispatchers?? I guess they were smarter than you thought!!!! Don't feel bad though. I'm sure you and Gary gave it your best.

 

[twuer]

(Bob) I hear the the AGW is starting to take off here in JFK. So I guess those copies I handed out did not end up in the pail. Lets see ORD, DFW, MIA , now JFK. Gee how are you going to fight the AGW? You dont have a huge concentration of fleet service workers in a super low cost area like Tulsa or KC to hold up the AGW. Looks like you do have bigger fish to fry!


Are you kidding me?? I'm not too worried about the AGW. They are associated with and use the same rhetoric as AMFA.

We don't have a high concentration of dispatchers here in this "super low-cost area" either and they decided not to change. They must have seen right through ole Dan and Gary. Maybe you should be the spokesperson next time Bob. Can you spit out the same kind of rhetoric??

(Bob) You claim you want to debate, well lets start one. "Whose fault is it that our wages and benifits over the last twenty years has been in decline, by over 30% when compared to the CPI, since the early eighties, the members or the leaders

As much as I liked to say what you want to hear Bob, I'm afraid I can't. You aren't going to like my answer. The members ratify every vote. (so maybe you are to blame Bob) That is a fact, no disputing that. The negotiating committee chooses what to vote on then the members vote on it. There are ways to handle the negotiating committee if you aren't happy with who sits on it or if you want to add more input. You know this stuff Bob. I'm sure in your response you are going to tell me how I always put the blame on the members, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's the members responsibilty to change their union if they don't like the way it is operated. The TWU constitution provides a way for that to happen. If the membership chooses to be lackluster in their particiaption, no matter what union is on the property, the results will affect the strength of the union as a whole. That being said, the TWU has outperformed any other union in the industry for several years as far as representation and contracts. You asked, I answered. Now spin away. . .but those are facts.

(Bob) By the way this thread was started by a dues payer requesting information. Have you provided it or at least steered him in the right direction yet? Is simple information from a dues paying member too much to expect? Or are you Too busy engaging in unproductive discussion?

If you are so concerned with it, why aren't you trying to answer his question??

 

[Bob Owens]

[Are you kidding me?? I'm not too worried about the AGW. They are associated with and use the same rhetoric as AMFA.

Ok Fine. We will see. I'll bet the Teamsters were not worried about the PFAA and the IAM were not worried about AMFA. And lets not forget the TWU not worrying about the APFA and AMFA.


We don't have a high concentration of dispatchers here in this "super low-cost area" either and they decided not to change. They must have seen right through ole Dan and Gary. Maybe you should be the spokesperson next time Bob. Can you spit out the same kind of rhetoric??

No, they are all in a low cost area making more than mechanics. They obviuosly dont have as much reason to leave as we do but they still got an election and just eleven votes would have changed the outcome. Thats pretty close and from what I was told PAFCA folded over at UAL. Maybe they stayed out of pity for Little.

As much as I liked to say what you want to hear Bob, I'm afraid I can't. You aren't going to like my answer. The members ratify every vote. (so maybe you are to blame Bob) That is a fact, no disputing that. The negotiating committee chooses what to vote on then the members vote on it. There are ways to handle the negotiating committee if you aren't happy with who sits on it or if you want to add more input. You know this stuff Bob. I'm sure in your response you are going to tell me how I always put the blame on the members, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's the members responsibilty to change their union if they don't like the way it is operated. The TWU constitution provides a way for that to happen. If the membership chooses to be lackluster in their particiaption, no matter what union is on the property, the results will affect the strength of the union as a whole. That being said, the TWU has outperformed any other union in the industry for several years as far as representation and contracts. You asked, I answered. Now spin away. . .but those are facts.


The members ratify every vote, what did you get that line from Yogi Barra?
Its over when its over?

The problem is that the members do not get to vote on a lot of key issues such as who is the head of their division. Tell me how does the Constitution provide members at AA the ability to vote for the lead negotiator-the ATD director? How does the Constutution give the members the ability to vote for the International Reps like Bobby Gless, Gary Yingst and Conlly?
How does the Constution provide members the ability to vote out Sonny Hall, and please dont tell me that they can vote for delegates. We all know what a fraud the Convention is where votes are usually not even counted and the members have no way of knowing for sure how their delegate voted.

The negotating committee chooses what to vote on but who determines what the choices are? The International.

How much bargaining was done face to face between the committee and the company? Or did the committee come up with a proposal and give it to the International who then may or may not have given it to the company? How does the committee even know if the company sees all their proposals and did they get the opportunity to make their case to the company as to why they should accept it? Where both groups, the company and the committee locked in the room together for hours on end till an agreement was hammered out or was the committee locked in the room without the company?

The negotationg committe and the Presidents councils are mere patsy's. Tell us how did the Presidents council vote on Seperate Locals? Despite all the arm twisting this one time they did not fold, but they got them anyway didnt they? Oh yea the members affected voted on it right? But why not the whole class and craft? The fact is that the power lies at the top, all the rest is just a facade, it provides you sacrificial zinc. You bring forth concessionary contracts, the local members take it out on the local officials who in reality determine nothing. In the meantime the real culprits remain untouchable and in place to bring forward another concessionary contract. The cycle just continues.

We can vote out the committe but how can we vote out the head of the committee? We cant.

You are right on one point, it is the members responsibility to change their union, and that is exeactly what we are trying to do-change our union to AMFA because the TWU Constitution does not give us the ability to change what we need to change. What is the point of voting in a new negotations committee if the lead negotiator is the same?

So tell us how does the Constitution allow the members to change things within the TWU? Your saying it does, does not make it so.

There you go, "Its the members fault that they voted in a contract that was in reality determined by an unelected appointed lead negotiator". You cite the lack of "participation" as something that makes the union weak. Well be more specific into the participation you wish to see and how that will result in better contracts.

I see claims but there is nothing to suppport them. Cant you give any evidence as to your claim that the "TWU has outperformed any other union in the industry". Outperformed? How by giving AA the lowest labor costs? By giving SWA the lowest cost for Flight Attendants? By lowering fuelers rates of pay at Ogden? By representing the lowest paid ramp workers on the airport-Swissport and Worldwide?

As for answering the members question I believe that he is paying you to do that. If he asks me I will do what I can but I am not a TWU official.

 

[Bob Owens]

It seems that Team TWU and TWUer are at a loss for words. Maybe they have to run this post past the PR firm to see how they can spin it.

 

[Superside]

"...the TWU has outperformed any other union in the industry for several years as far as representation and contracts...",twuer.

What? Would you, Twuer, mind listing point by point exactly what contracts and what representation?
Do not delay, for many here that would like to know.

 

[Oldweirdharold]

Superside Posted: Dec 20 2003, 05:00 PM

"...the TWU has outperformed any other union in the industry for several years as far as representation and contracts...",twuer.

What? Would you, Twuer, mind listing point by point exactly what contracts and what representation?
Do not delay, for many here that would like to know.

<<< Yes we would like to know and don't hold back now team twu or cio just let your pride show, brag on all your firsts and industry leading accomplishments
I think we'll hear alot of silence or they will deflect or change subject, you reading this don't let them, keep these so-called tw -ewe men on topic and refrain from the personal attacks please.. Gentlemen you have the floor to list your superior intellectual doings, don't be shy ;-)


AMT Jim Anderson 4 D Tul

 

[Superside]

"...Come on Bob. You are getting absolutley nothing accomplished on these boards", Twuer.

Twuer, If only you knew how many times a day someone asks me..."got any more of Bobs posts?".
The staunch TWU supporters hate to here that question.
Keep up the good work Bob, Your post are popular in my shop.

 

[Oldweirdharold]

thanks twu, Just received my latest installment of '' why we're sticking with our union'' and read it with interest, unlike some of your minions that patrol AA destroying all AMFA literature despite a court ruling upholding 1st amendment rights.... Noticed of late teamtwu and cio calling for AMFA to file as they have over 50% of needed craft and class and I am also wondering why in a true democracy where majority decides that you are ignoring the will of the membership.. Over 50% that's a majority have decided to hold you accountable and bring this to a vote, if in fact you are truly unionists instead of obstructionists you'll recognize this.. True strength in numbers would be all AMT's and related being represented by one union, why has afl-cio ignored this for decades?? If you have all the power and are comfortable in your performance as our representative then please list the positive things you've accomplished here and now... The time for healing our craft and class is now, lets dispense with the verbal wars and just get down to business, Looking forward to debates on the issues with equal time for both sides and may the best man win.. Are you ready??

Jim Anderson