JFK-LHR has all those WALL Street Investment bankers, Media types, Park Ave. types, and Jet Set flying the route. Miami is not a financial center on the level of BOS, ORD or JFK is so MIA-LHR is not a profitable because a pool of high spending business types doesn't exist in Florida. The CONCORDE flies to JFK because there is a deep enough pool of high spenders in New York or traveling to NYC. Miami will be an intenational city of the level New York, London, or Hong Kong are. JFK-LHR is the biggest route for British Airways, Virgin, and AA in their Atlantic portfolios. Miami equivalent is MIA to Sao Paulo.
LAX-NRT Delayed
- Thread starter jj
- Start date
TWAnr
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
- 1,003
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 12:33:17 AM MAH4546 wrote:
And, war or no war, state-owned El Al has never suspended operations, and never will. Even during war, thier flights go on, usually being escorted by military jets as they land and take off from Ben Gruion.
----------------
[/blockquote]
This is off topic, but two comments are called for:
First. El Al is in the process of being privatized. The incoming Transportation Minister is accelerating the process. A public offering is expected in May on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange.
Second. In all the years that I have flown, countless times, in and out of TLV on El Al, TWA, British Airways and other European carriers, I have never had any of my flights escorted by military planes. It does happen (just as it is happening in the USA in this post 9/11 world), but it is the exception rather than the rule.
----------------
On 3/2/2003 12:33:17 AM MAH4546 wrote:
And, war or no war, state-owned El Al has never suspended operations, and never will. Even during war, thier flights go on, usually being escorted by military jets as they land and take off from Ben Gruion.
----------------
[/blockquote]
This is off topic, but two comments are called for:
First. El Al is in the process of being privatized. The incoming Transportation Minister is accelerating the process. A public offering is expected in May on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange.
Second. In all the years that I have flown, countless times, in and out of TLV on El Al, TWA, British Airways and other European carriers, I have never had any of my flights escorted by military planes. It does happen (just as it is happening in the USA in this post 9/11 world), but it is the exception rather than the rule.
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
- 786
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
PRESTIGE and profits are synonamous.
----------------
[/blockquote]
That's a great myth. Many carriers have thought that prestige routes were automatically going to be profitable, and lost that gamble. Braniff to Europe and Asia comes to mind, as does America West with their 747s to Hawaii and Japan, Air Florida with their DC10's from Miami to London. There are some carriers who still hold to that myth, such as US Airways from anywhere to Europe...
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
When Pan AM and TWA were selling routes what did AA , DAL and UA pay BIG money for? LHR & Tokyo.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Not entirely true. The one point you're correct about is the LHR access. AA and UA paid a lot of cash for those rights, but the investment was recouped within a year or so for both AA and UA. Likewise for UA's purchase of the Pacific from Pan Am, and AA's purchase of South America from Eastern.
Even though there is prestige attached to NYC-LON, the route has historically been able to support support more than five carriers since the mid-1980's (TW/AA, PA/UA, BA, AI, KU, PE/CO, VS). The only other route I can think of with that many carriers flying it is LAX-NRT.
DAL didn't pay anyone for LHR or Pacific routes. They paid (way too much) for PA's FRA and JFK hubs. Today, DL's JFK-Europe operation is a shadow of what it used to be, and the FRA hub is long gone.
UA paid for a lot more than just Tokyo. They also got immediate access into Singapore, Thailand, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China. That was a lot more than prestige.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
BA is so profitable because no more competition can enter LHR. The player may change, but only so many flights a day can fly to LHR. Slot controls equal profits.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Tell that to Ryanair and Easyjet. They're doing just fine without slots...
BA is profitable for a lot of reasons, with LHR being a part of that, but more so due to the fact that Bob Ayling started a corporate downsizing that Rod Eddington completed. They were able to get their cost problem and capacity problems under control -before- it reached critical mass.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
Miami is not a financial center on the level of BOS, ORD or JFK
----------------
[/blockquote]
Surely you jest...
It may not be a financial center for northern hemisphere oriented commerce, but it certainly is for Central/South America and the Caribbean. There aren't too many foreign banks or multi-national corporations from those regions who don't have a presence in Miami.
If LHR-MIA wasn't profitable, I don't think AA would have added a second section last year in the midst of their financial woes.
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
PRESTIGE and profits are synonamous.
----------------
[/blockquote]
That's a great myth. Many carriers have thought that prestige routes were automatically going to be profitable, and lost that gamble. Braniff to Europe and Asia comes to mind, as does America West with their 747s to Hawaii and Japan, Air Florida with their DC10's from Miami to London. There are some carriers who still hold to that myth, such as US Airways from anywhere to Europe...
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
When Pan AM and TWA were selling routes what did AA , DAL and UA pay BIG money for? LHR & Tokyo.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Not entirely true. The one point you're correct about is the LHR access. AA and UA paid a lot of cash for those rights, but the investment was recouped within a year or so for both AA and UA. Likewise for UA's purchase of the Pacific from Pan Am, and AA's purchase of South America from Eastern.
Even though there is prestige attached to NYC-LON, the route has historically been able to support support more than five carriers since the mid-1980's (TW/AA, PA/UA, BA, AI, KU, PE/CO, VS). The only other route I can think of with that many carriers flying it is LAX-NRT.
DAL didn't pay anyone for LHR or Pacific routes. They paid (way too much) for PA's FRA and JFK hubs. Today, DL's JFK-Europe operation is a shadow of what it used to be, and the FRA hub is long gone.
UA paid for a lot more than just Tokyo. They also got immediate access into Singapore, Thailand, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China. That was a lot more than prestige.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
BA is so profitable because no more competition can enter LHR. The player may change, but only so many flights a day can fly to LHR. Slot controls equal profits.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Tell that to Ryanair and Easyjet. They're doing just fine without slots...
BA is profitable for a lot of reasons, with LHR being a part of that, but more so due to the fact that Bob Ayling started a corporate downsizing that Rod Eddington completed. They were able to get their cost problem and capacity problems under control -before- it reached critical mass.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:41:16 AM JFK777 wrote:
Miami is not a financial center on the level of BOS, ORD or JFK
----------------
[/blockquote]
Surely you jest...
It may not be a financial center for northern hemisphere oriented commerce, but it certainly is for Central/South America and the Caribbean. There aren't too many foreign banks or multi-national corporations from those regions who don't have a presence in Miami.
If LHR-MIA wasn't profitable, I don't think AA would have added a second section last year in the midst of their financial woes.
AA second MIA-LHR is a winter happening only. In the summer its only once daily. ORD-LHR is four daily, BOS-lhr is 3 daily this summer, Jfk is 6, LAX is once daily and Miami is once daily. The second miami frequency is a reduction from ORD for the winter. If maimi were so great AA would have 2 daily year round frequencies. Miami is not a financial center on the level of Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston or New York. There isn't a major bank , Stock or commodities exchabge or any Fortune 500 Headquartered in Miami. In the northern cities there are many.
TWAnr
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
- 1,003
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 12
15 PM s80dude wrote:
EL AL will fly MIA TLV on Sundays? I thought they grounded their fleets on Sunday to keep the sabbath
----------------
[/blockquote]
From www.EverythingJewish.com (http://www.everythingjewish.com/Shabbat/Shabbat_Origins.htm):
[blockquote]
----------------
In The Beginning ...the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their array. And on the seventh day G-d finished the work which He had been doing, and He ceased on the seventh day from all the work which He had done. And G-d blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it G-d ceased from all the work of creation which He had done. (Genesis 2:1-3)
Zachor: Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord, your G-d; you shall not do any work - you, your son or daughter, your male or female servant, or your cattle, or the stranger, who is within your settlements. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and sea, and all that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath and sanctified it. (Exodus 20:8-11)
Shamor: Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord, your G-d; you shall not do any work - you, your son or daughter, your male or female servant, or your cattle, or the stranger, who is within your settlements, so that your male and female servant may rest as you do. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt and the Lord your G-d freed you from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your G-d has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. (Deuteronomy 5:12-15)
Shabbat, which begins from twilight on Friday and continues until Saturday at sundown, is the only Jewish holiday listed in the Ten Commandments; not just once in Exodus, but also a second time in Deuteronomy, when the Ten Commandments were repeated before the entire congregation of Israel.
----------------
[/blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 12
15 PM s80dude wrote: EL AL will fly MIA TLV on Sundays? I thought they grounded their fleets on Sunday to keep the sabbath
----------------
[/blockquote]
From www.EverythingJewish.com (http://www.everythingjewish.com/Shabbat/Shabbat_Origins.htm):
[blockquote]
----------------
In The Beginning ...the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their array. And on the seventh day G-d finished the work which He had been doing, and He ceased on the seventh day from all the work which He had done. And G-d blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it G-d ceased from all the work of creation which He had done. (Genesis 2:1-3)
Zachor: Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord, your G-d; you shall not do any work - you, your son or daughter, your male or female servant, or your cattle, or the stranger, who is within your settlements. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and sea, and all that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath and sanctified it. (Exodus 20:8-11)
Shamor: Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord, your G-d; you shall not do any work - you, your son or daughter, your male or female servant, or your cattle, or the stranger, who is within your settlements, so that your male and female servant may rest as you do. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt and the Lord your G-d freed you from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your G-d has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. (Deuteronomy 5:12-15)
Shabbat, which begins from twilight on Friday and continues until Saturday at sundown, is the only Jewish holiday listed in the Ten Commandments; not just once in Exodus, but also a second time in Deuteronomy, when the Ten Commandments were repeated before the entire congregation of Israel.
----------------
[/blockquote]
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 11:37:45 AM eolesen wrote:
There are some carriers who still hold to that myth, such as US Airways from anywhere to Europe...
[/blockquote]
I've been told by folks in the know at US that their European routes are some of the most profitable routes they fly.
----------------
On 3/2/2003 11:37:45 AM eolesen wrote:
There are some carriers who still hold to that myth, such as US Airways from anywhere to Europe...
[/blockquote]
I've been told by folks in the know at US that their European routes are some of the most profitable routes they fly.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:35:20 AM JFK777 wrote:
JFK-LHR has all those WALL Street Investment bankers, Media types, Park Ave. types, and Jet Set flying the route. Miami is not a financial center on the level of BOS, ORD or JFK is so MIA-LHR is not a profitable because a pool of high spending business types doesn't exist in Florida. The CONCORDE flies to JFK because there is a deep enough pool of high spenders in New York or traveling to NYC. Miami will be an intenational city of the level New York, London, or Hong Kong are. JFK-LHR is the biggest route for British Airways, Virgin, and AA in their Atlantic portfolios. Miami equivalent is MIA to Sao Paulo.
----------------
[/blockquote]
LOL JFK, keep telling yourself Miami is not a major financial centre.
...Over 120 international banks have offices in Miami. Second to NYC. From banks in Israel to Venezuela to Britain to Japan, there is not one major world bank without offices in Miami.
...Miami's financial district (Brickell) is the second largest in the US. Larger than Chicago's, larger than Boston's, larger than San Francisco's.
...banking is the City of Miami's #1 industry, and Miami-Dade Country's #2 industy
...British Airways flew the Concorde to Miami between 1984 and 1991, three times a week.
...the NYC-LON market has way too much compietition. Like I said, I will bet you plenty that MIA-LHR makes more money for AA than any other LHR route they have. Why do I say that?
1) Miami-London market, capacity-wise, is underserved. It is a major business route, as much as you don't want to believe so. By underserving the market, AA actually does themself a favour, because summer yields on MIA-LHR are astronomical, I promise.
2) Miami-London market has only three competitors, and AA is best friends with one of them, while the other flies to less business friendly Gatwick. Over at JFK, AA has to compete with the bargain basement fares that Air India and Kuwait Airlines charge.
3) Just check the fares. The average MIA-LHR fare is higher than the average JFK-LHR fare in any class. Nothing scientific, does not nessecarily prove that MIA makes more money than JFK, but certainly does not hurt the argument (a walk-up MIA-LHR fare higher than a walk-up JFK-LHR fare in any class. Will JFK have more walk-ups than MIA? Yes, but JFK also has triple the capacity to fill up with walk-ups).
4) As Air France more than anyone has so delightfully learned, European tourists who visit Miami spend mega-bucks, including pampering themselves in First.
...Pretige means nothing. As "prestigous" as it is to fly BOS-LHR, UA could not hack it and pulled out last October. As "prestigous" as it is to fly LAX-NRT, AA learned that it is not always that easy to make a quick buck on a typically high-yielding route. As "prestigous" as connecting JFK with HKG is, United Airlines and Cathay both realized that the prestige did not equate to profit (Cathay did not even bother launching thier intended service with a 343; though I do believe they are going to give it another shot now that they have 346s).
...MIA currently has more capacity to London than Sao Paulo.
...you seriously need to erase your conception that "prestige" instantly equals better. Incase you did not know, Charlotte, North Carolina is a larger financial centre than Chicago or Boston.
Seriously, if all you think Miami is is palm trees and tourists, you are deeply mistaken.
----------------
On 3/2/2003 7:35:20 AM JFK777 wrote:
JFK-LHR has all those WALL Street Investment bankers, Media types, Park Ave. types, and Jet Set flying the route. Miami is not a financial center on the level of BOS, ORD or JFK is so MIA-LHR is not a profitable because a pool of high spending business types doesn't exist in Florida. The CONCORDE flies to JFK because there is a deep enough pool of high spenders in New York or traveling to NYC. Miami will be an intenational city of the level New York, London, or Hong Kong are. JFK-LHR is the biggest route for British Airways, Virgin, and AA in their Atlantic portfolios. Miami equivalent is MIA to Sao Paulo.
----------------
[/blockquote]
LOL JFK, keep telling yourself Miami is not a major financial centre.
...Over 120 international banks have offices in Miami. Second to NYC. From banks in Israel to Venezuela to Britain to Japan, there is not one major world bank without offices in Miami.
...Miami's financial district (Brickell) is the second largest in the US. Larger than Chicago's, larger than Boston's, larger than San Francisco's.
...banking is the City of Miami's #1 industry, and Miami-Dade Country's #2 industy
...British Airways flew the Concorde to Miami between 1984 and 1991, three times a week.
...the NYC-LON market has way too much compietition. Like I said, I will bet you plenty that MIA-LHR makes more money for AA than any other LHR route they have. Why do I say that?
1) Miami-London market, capacity-wise, is underserved. It is a major business route, as much as you don't want to believe so. By underserving the market, AA actually does themself a favour, because summer yields on MIA-LHR are astronomical, I promise.
2) Miami-London market has only three competitors, and AA is best friends with one of them, while the other flies to less business friendly Gatwick. Over at JFK, AA has to compete with the bargain basement fares that Air India and Kuwait Airlines charge.
3) Just check the fares. The average MIA-LHR fare is higher than the average JFK-LHR fare in any class. Nothing scientific, does not nessecarily prove that MIA makes more money than JFK, but certainly does not hurt the argument (a walk-up MIA-LHR fare higher than a walk-up JFK-LHR fare in any class. Will JFK have more walk-ups than MIA? Yes, but JFK also has triple the capacity to fill up with walk-ups).
4) As Air France more than anyone has so delightfully learned, European tourists who visit Miami spend mega-bucks, including pampering themselves in First.
...Pretige means nothing. As "prestigous" as it is to fly BOS-LHR, UA could not hack it and pulled out last October. As "prestigous" as it is to fly LAX-NRT, AA learned that it is not always that easy to make a quick buck on a typically high-yielding route. As "prestigous" as connecting JFK with HKG is, United Airlines and Cathay both realized that the prestige did not equate to profit (Cathay did not even bother launching thier intended service with a 343; though I do believe they are going to give it another shot now that they have 346s).
...MIA currently has more capacity to London than Sao Paulo.
...you seriously need to erase your conception that "prestige" instantly equals better. Incase you did not know, Charlotte, North Carolina is a larger financial centre than Chicago or Boston.
Seriously, if all you think Miami is is palm trees and tourists, you are deeply mistaken.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 9:53:31 PM Cart Pusher wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:03:39 PM MAH4546 wrote:
Incase you did not know, Charlotte, North Carolina is a larger financial centre than Chicago or Boston.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Charlotte is also a bigger banking center than Miami. Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the U.S. -
----------------
[/blockquote]
It sure is. And San Francisco, California comes next. Another huge banking centre is Birmingham, Alabama.
----------------
On 3/2/2003 9:53:31 PM Cart Pusher wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:03:39 PM MAH4546 wrote:
Incase you did not know, Charlotte, North Carolina is a larger financial centre than Chicago or Boston.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Charlotte is also a bigger banking center than Miami. Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the U.S. -
----------------
[/blockquote]
It sure is. And San Francisco, California comes next. Another huge banking centre is Birmingham, Alabama.
Cart Pusher
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 146
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:03:39 PM MAH4546 wrote:
Incase you did not know, Charlotte, North Carolina is a larger financial centre than Chicago or Boston.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Charlotte is also a bigger banking center than Miami. Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the U.S. -
----------------
On 3/2/2003 8:03:39 PM MAH4546 wrote:
Incase you did not know, Charlotte, North Carolina is a larger financial centre than Chicago or Boston.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Charlotte is also a bigger banking center than Miami. Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the U.S. -
Cart Pusher
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 146
- 0
I always thought it was odd that Charlotte, NC was such a large banking center. Who would have guessed?
Just because every bank from South America has an office in Miami doesn't make it the second biggest financial center in the USA. I would like to know how many banks from aroound the world have offices in Los Angeles or San Francisco. Given how large the Pacific economy has become I would say many. All that Asian trade arriving at west coast ports requires a proportional banking sector. Miami as the capitol of latin America doesn't finance trade and commerce to the same level as California. Japan alone is the second biggest economy in the world. Brazil, the largest economy in South America isn't even in the G7.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/3/2003 6:48:58 AM JFK777 wrote:
Just because every bank from South America has an office in Miami doesn't make it the second biggest financial center in the USA. I would like to know how many banks from aroound the world have offices in Los Angeles or San Francisco. Given how large the Pacific economy has become I would say many. All that Asian trade arriving at west coast ports requires a proportional banking sector. Miami as the capitol of latin America doesn't finance trade and commerce to the same level as California. Japan alone is the second biggest economy in the world. Brazil, the largest economy in South America isn't even in the G7.
----------------
[/blockquote]
JFK, almost every major bank in the world has major operations in Miami, from Banco de Venezuela to the Bank of Israel to Mitsubishi Bank of Japan to Barclay's of England (which even has a skyscraper downtown). 121 to be exact, with nearly $60B in assets in the city. Plus 13 Edge Banks with $7B in deposits, 38 state-licensesed foreign bank agencies with $12.5B in deposits, and 59 commerical banks with $38B in deposits. There are more multi-national banks with operations in Miami than any other US city except NYC. More than LA. More than San Fran.
----------------
On 3/3/2003 6:48:58 AM JFK777 wrote:
Just because every bank from South America has an office in Miami doesn't make it the second biggest financial center in the USA. I would like to know how many banks from aroound the world have offices in Los Angeles or San Francisco. Given how large the Pacific economy has become I would say many. All that Asian trade arriving at west coast ports requires a proportional banking sector. Miami as the capitol of latin America doesn't finance trade and commerce to the same level as California. Japan alone is the second biggest economy in the world. Brazil, the largest economy in South America isn't even in the G7.
----------------
[/blockquote]
JFK, almost every major bank in the world has major operations in Miami, from Banco de Venezuela to the Bank of Israel to Mitsubishi Bank of Japan to Barclay's of England (which even has a skyscraper downtown). 121 to be exact, with nearly $60B in assets in the city. Plus 13 Edge Banks with $7B in deposits, 38 state-licensesed foreign bank agencies with $12.5B in deposits, and 59 commerical banks with $38B in deposits. There are more multi-national banks with operations in Miami than any other US city except NYC. More than LA. More than San Fran.
Miami may have Barclays and every other bank in the world there. For banks in latin America having a Miami office is a sign of certain maturity, size and prestige. So every bank has one. 60 billion in Bank assets is nothing. The Bank of New Yrok is a bank of that size but it has about $4 trillion under custody. CitiGroup, Headquartered in New York, has over a 1 trillion of assets on it Balance sheet. JPMorgan Chase the same thing. $60 Billion is chump change. How many $100 billion banks are there in Miami? NONE
Please accept the fact Miami does have 120 banks with ofices there but these are just small offices.
Please accept the fact Miami does have 120 banks with ofices there but these are just small offices.
