Latest Numbers on the VBR & OVL's

[coldplay]

Yup, coldplay is cold as usual.

oh okay, my bad....What I really meant to say is "YAY AMR Management!!! Let's hand them another round of bonuses for such a great job!! They really care about us!!!"

🙄

If this kumbayah moment impressed you so much, you must be willing to forget everything else management, with the help of the APFA, has done over the years to screw us over.
One "shining" moment of cooperation between us and them, in my book, does NOT make up for everything else. If all else, they probably 'cooperated' with the APFA on this as part of their give-them-a-little-taste-but-not-too-much usual way just to pacify the masses.
And by the reaction you guys are showing, it's working and business as usual.

 

[AAflygirl]

One "shining" moment of cooperation between us and them, in my book, does NOT make up for everything else. If all else, they probably 'cooperated' with the APFA on this as part of their give-them-a-little-taste-but-not-too-much usual way just to pacify the masses.
And by the reaction you guys are showing, it's working and business as usual.

I'm not saying it does, but from the perspective of someone whose job was probably saved by the VBRs, I'm very glad that both sides decided to play nice on this one. Neither had to, but it worked out well in the end.

 

[coldplay]

I'm not saying it does, but from the perspective of someone whose job was probably saved by the VBRs, I'm very glad that both sides decided to play nice on this one. Neither had to, but it worked out well in the end.

and I'm just saying that they didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts and concern for the FAs (especially the ex-TWArs) but rather because they were obligated and required to do so contractually.

Does my opinion make me "cold as usual"? No, it just a realistic POV. You guys think Management is not going to EXPECT something in return for this gesture of "goodwill" and "cooperation" (the VBRs)? Just sit back and watch for subtle changes in our work rules in the coming future. And as usual, the leadership of APFA wil cave in and bend over and most of the FAs will just accept it because "well, they did cooperate with us...let's give them a bone."

smoke and mirrors, people. This is AMR management at work and already some of you are cheering them on.

 

[eolesen]

Ah, yes. AMR really wanted to pay out the cash incentives rather than just lay off the most junior people.

VBR wasn't contractual as it was presented to all workgroups.

BTW, your little example of poor cleaning? If it was a mid-day turn, thank your union cousins over at the TWU for their fine attention to detail. Go fly CO sometime... They've outsourced dayline and overnight cabin at their hubs for years. And they score at the top of the cabin cleanliness rankings with Survey America and others. Coincidence? I think not.

Kudos to the APFA membership for actually appearing to give a damn. Despite their sometimes irrational nature, the FA's once again seem to have proved they're actually a union and not a bunch of people paying dues to some guys who probably spend more time on junkets or at strip clubs smokng cigars than they do worrying about the membership.

 

[sprflyr123]

Kudos to the APFA membership for actually appearing to give a damn. Despite their sometimes irrational nature, the FA's once again seem to have proved they're actually a union and not a bunch of people paying dues to some guys who probably spend more time on junkets or at strip clubs smokng cigars than they do worrying about the membership.

I have to agree. I feel like everyone worked together to find a way to avoid having to layoff anyone. Regardless of what others have to say about APFA being weak or management being comprised of ogres, neither side wasted any time figuring this one out fighting back and forth about stupid stuff. They both showed they wanted to ease the amount of furloughs and the result has been more than positive for all of us.

 

[Skymess]

I have to agree. I feel like everyone worked together to find a way to avoid having to layoff anyone. Regardless of what others have to say about APFA being weak or management being comprised of ogres, neither side wasted any time figuring this one out fighting back and forth about stupid stuff. They both showed they wanted to ease the amount of furloughs and the result has been more than positive for all of us.

Glad nobody got furloughed. Let's hope it lasts. Hopefully 900 people will retire within the year so there will be no need for another waiting period and possible layoff threats.

 

[youbetcha]

Ah, yes. AMR really wanted to pay out the cash incentives rather than just lay off the most junior people.

VBR wasn't contractual as it was presented to all workgroups.

BTW, your little example of poor cleaning? If it was a mid-day turn, thank your union cousins over at the TWU for their fine attention to detail. Go fly CO sometime... They've outsourced dayline and overnight cabin at their hubs for years. And they score at the top of the cabin cleanliness rankings with Survey America and others. Coincidence? I think not.

Kudos to the APFA membership for actually appearing to give a damn. Despite their sometimes irrational nature, the FA's once again seem to have proved they're actually a union and not a bunch of people paying dues to some guys who probably spend more time on junkets or at strip clubs smokng cigars than they do worrying about the membership.

Whoa there buddy. APFA is made up of Flight Attendants and American's Flight Attendants only. The 4 National Officers are the only ones on an actual leave from the company during their terms. Their salaries are based on the hourly rate of an international flight attendant so they have a strong, vested interest in doing the best they can for everyone. Every APFA President, but one, went back to the line after their term. Most are still flying. As for cigars and strip clubs, you really don't know the Flight Attendant work group.
This type of personal attack on the integrity of these people is just not warranted nor appropriate.

 

[The Goose]

Whoa there buddy. APFA is made up of Flight Attendants and American's Flight Attendants only. The 4 National Officers are the only ones on an actual leave from the company during their terms. Their salaries are based on the hourly rate of an international flight attendant so they have a strong, vested interest in doing the best they can for everyone. Every APFA President, but one, went back to the line after their term. Most are still flying. As for cigars and strip clubs, you really don't know the Flight Attendant work group.
This type of personal attack on the integrity of these people is just not warranted nor appropriate.

Eric didn't attack the FAs - he attacked the TWU and rightly so.

Little Jimmy makes $230,000+ per year as union president (ATD), a salary with no basis re: the hourly rate paid to the airline mechanics the so-called "union" represents. That's what was attacked.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

If it was a mid-day turn, thank your union cousins over at the TWU for their fine attention to detail.

Fine attention to detail has nothing to do with it Eric, if we're lucky enough to get two cleaners on an aircraft we are shadowed by both the gate agent and the passenger service CSM who are asking 'Can we board?' every two minutes.

We've been yanked off half cleaned airplanes by management so many times it is embarrassing.I actually apologize to the crews for the half done job of cleaning.


Passenger service is afraid of a delay the way people in the middle ages were afraid of the plague.


How do you reconcile "We know why you fly" with the abject filth on these airplanes?

 

[coldplay]

Fine attention to detail has nothing to do with it Eric, if we're lucky enough to get two cleaners on an aircraft we are shadowed by both the gate agent and the passenger service CSM who are asking 'Can we board?' every two minutes.
We've been yanked off half cleaned airplanes by management so many times it is embarrassing.I actually apologize to the crews for the half done job of cleaning.


Passenger service is afraid of a delay the way people in the middle ages were afraid of the plague.

How do you reconcile "We know why you fly" with the abject filth on these airplanes?

You've got that right! Great way by eric to divert the problem from management nitpicking to the Unions. Gee, i wonder who's been forcing the rampers to trim down their ranks, buy cheapass cleaning products or not at all and using "cost cutting" as a reason? The unions? yeah, right! Who pressures the agents to get on-time departures or they get written up? those agents sure are such stickler to the rules by themselves without pressure from supervisors, right? NOT!

Like i've said earlier, Management says according to Premier passenger "surveys", clean planes take a backseat to on time departures. I wonder who these "premier passengers" are? probably the same ones who would prefer cheap gut rotting alcohol for their mixed drinks instead of Tanqueray, Crowne Royale, and makers Mark. According to surveys, passengers prefer the cheaper brands...and then we charge them an arm and a leg for it. What a crock! On the other hand, a filthy brokedown plane is easily blocked from your senses since it's faster getting drunk on our cheapass replacement liquor onboard and the usual smell of dried up urine that permeates throughout our "clean" planes would soon be over-powered by the odor of the runs you'd get mid-flight.

By the way, while everyone is cheering management and the APFA for their spirit of cooperation and working hand-in-hand kumbayah moment, ask yourselves...when was the lst time we got an AIP check? And when was the last time Arpey got a bonus?

uh-huh, that's right, haven't seen an AIP check since early 2007!

 

[Hopeful]

You've got that right! Great way by eric to divert the problem from management nitpicking to the Unions. Gee, i wonder who's been forcing the rampers to trim down their ranks, buy cheapass cleaning products or not at all and using "cost cutting" as a reason? The unions? yeah, right! Who pressures the agents to get on-time departures or they get written up? those agents sure are such stickler to the rules by themselves without pressure from supervisors, right? NOT!

Like i've said earlier, Management says according to Premier passenger "surveys", clean planes take a backseat to on time departures. I wonder who these "premier passengers" are? probably the same ones who would prefer cheap gut rotting alcohol for their mixed drinks instead of Tanqueray, Crowne Royale, and makers Mark. According to surveys, passengers prefer the cheaper brands...and then we charge them an arm and a leg for it. What a crock! On the other hand, a filthy brokedown plane is easily blocked from your senses since it's faster getting drunk on our cheapass replacement liquor onboard and the usual smell of dried up urine that permeates throughout our "clean" planes would soon be over-powered by the odor of the runs you'd get mid-flight.

By the way, while everyone is cheering management and the APFA for their spirit of cooperation and working hand-in-hand kumbayah moment, ask yourselves...when was the lst time we got an AIP check? And when was the last time Arpey got a bonus?

uh-huh, that's right, haven't seen an AIP check since early 2007!

Don't waste your breath, coldplay....The pro company management supporting anti union posters here will tell you that if you want executive PUPS and compensation, then become an executive... They like to tell us how outdated and un reasonable unions are and need to live in today's world.. But they don't tell you that management hasn't changed one bit and are still the greedy arrogant pompous types that had a major hand in the state of the airlines because of their shortsightedness.

They like to blame labor for their woes because of ancient work rules that THEY THEMSELVES agreed on....

What a management team!

 

[Crapdog]

Is it true that a large number of mechanics at MCIE are being refused their VBR?

 

[coldplay]

Don't waste your breath, coldplay....The pro company management supporting anti union posters here will tell you that if you want executive PUPS and compensation, then become an executive... They like to tell us how outdated and un reasonable unions are and need to live in today's world.. But they don't tell you that management hasn't changed one bit and are still the greedy arrogant pompous types that had a major hand in the state of the airlines because of their shortsightedness.

They like to blame labor for their woes because of ancient work rules that THEY THEMSELVES agreed on....

What a management team!

That's what i don't understand about all these posts PRAISING management for offering the VBRs and oohhing and ahhing about how the Unuion and Management were able to work things out and save FAs from furlough. People seem to forget how much Management has taken away from us collectively over the years. Maybe you guys are suffering from memory loss and are willing to forgive them for one "postive" act shown by management and the APFA. I'm sure that they will be EXPECTING something in return for this "generous" offer in the near future and most of you will not even realize it until it bites you in the ass. Mark my words.

I'm sorry but while it's great that jobs were saved I am NOT giving credit to Arpey & Co. for this. Jobs were saved because FAs were faced with a choice, either voluntarily retire and take leaves OR 900 of our co-workers get furloughed. Should it even have come down to that if not for the bad management decisions that had led us into it? Sure place the blame on the "bad economy, the state of the industry, and the high price of fuel" if you want to turn a blind eye to th true cause. Truth is, it's Bad management decisions that led this company into the state it is today, yet they reward themselves with outrageous bonuses and raises on the backs of the employees and they see nothing wrong with it, they have the audacity to think they actually DESERVE these perks! To make things worse, our very own union leaders let them get away with it, all bark no bite.

So please, spare me the rah-rah yay APFA and Management for saving jobs schtick, and
While you're all feeling cozy and snuggly with management over this, ask yourselves another question...why are Negotiations at a standstill right now? People got waylaid by the prospect of furloughs and more cutbacks and forgot about Negotiations all of a sudden.

 

[The Goose]

That's what i don't understand about all these posts PRAISING management for offering the VBRs and oohhing and ahhing about how the Unuion and Management were able to work things out and save FAs from furlough. People seem to forget how much Management has taken away from us collectively over the years. Maybe you guys are suffering from memory loss and are willing to forgive them for one "postive" act shown by management and the APFA. I'm sure that they will be EXPECTING something in return for this "generous" offer in the near future and most of you will not even realize it until it bites you in the ass. Mark my words.

I'm sorry but while it's great that jobs were saved I am NOT giving credit to Arpey & Co. for this. Jobs were saved because FAs were faced with a choice, either voluntarily retire and take leaves OR 900 of our co-workers get furloughed. Should it even have come down to that if not for the bad management decisions that had led us into it? Sure place the blame on the "bad economy, the state of the industry, and the high price of fuel" if you want to turn a blind eye to th true cause. Truth is, it's Bad management decisions that led this company into the state it is today, yet they reward themselves with outrageous bonuses and raises on the backs of the employees and they see nothing wrong with it, they have the audacity to think they actually DESERVE these perks! To make things worse, our very own union leaders let them get away with it, all bark no bite.

So please, spare me the rah-rah yay APFA and Management for saving jobs schtick, and
While you're all feeling cozy and snuggly with management over this, ask yourselves another question...why are Negotiations at a standstill right now? People got waylaid by the prospect of furloughs and more cutbacks and forgot about Negotiations all of a sudden.

You missed the boat - this has nothing to do with "saving jobs", rather it has more to do with the company paying a bit extra to get the OK from a union. The jobs are gone, regardless - at issue is who gets cut.

The VBR wasn't designed to be an incentive except to the older crowd that had considered retiring anyway. It was mainly a way around the seniority issue. The company would rather send off the old farts (of which I am one, BTW) than the younger set - the extra money is simply the tribute paid to the workers for their respective unions' blessing to send workers home out of seniority, but with no chance to return.

Look at it for what it is.

 

[eolesen]

The VBR wasn't designed to be an incentive except to the older crowd that had considered retiring anyway. It was mainly a way around the seniority issue. The company would rather send off the old farts (of which I am one, BTW) than the younger set - the extra money is simply the tribute paid to the workers for their respective unions' blessing to send workers home out of seniority, but with no chance to return.

Look at it for what it is.

Well, if you read some of Princess's comments and figure that there are others like her, it's not just management that wanted to send off the old farts instead of sending the junior folks home.

Somewhat related... I'm told between 30 and 50 people were escorted out the door at HDQ last week, plus another couple dozen contractors (mostly programmers) over the past few weeks. The folks on payroll weren't even offered the option of a VBR because their jobs were simply eliminated.

I did hear that two L6 managers at ORD (MB in cargo, JK in hub admin) were taking the VBR. Haven't heard beyond that, though.