Kudos to the Pilots on PHL-MAD

[EastUS]

Care to elaborate?

Not really. If you're fine with immediately going to max manual braking, and immediately thereafter, taxing a ship with extremely hot brakes all the way to the gate "before the fuse plugs melt", and endangering ground support folks as well....I think we're done here.

 

[captain tom]

I don't think he specified max manual braking. I would use max autobrakes, even though the runways are pretty long (10k'+). This would avoid reaching the far end of the runway (where there may be rubber deposits) at too high a speed. You can always revert to manual brakes when you've got the airplane where you want it.

After stopping and getting a visual on my gear from the ARRF guys, and provided that the brake temps are reasonable (and yes, I know about the delay involved with brake temps), I would be willing to taxi to a gate.

His answer, while not perfect, was far more right than wrong. Lighten up.

Tom

Betting than you've never captained a heavy, or landed in Madrid.

 

[EastUS]

Betting than you've never captained a heavy, or landed in Madrid.

You're covered on both. What's your wager amount sir?

As per: "I don't think he specified max manual braking"...that wasn't my take, given the following = NLC: "....heavy breaking, and keep sure you stay on the centerline. The last bit is important because it tells you that you are applying equal pressure to both sets of brakes."..What I got from that = "it tells you that YOU are applying equal pressure to both sets of brakes."

Your "After stopping and getting a visual on my gear from the ARRF guys, and provided that the brake temps are reasonable (and yes, I know about the delay involved with brake temps), I would be willing to taxi to a gate. " Works for me as well.. I'll note that that's a FAR cry from NLC's : "After you've stopped its simply a matter of getting to the gate before all the fuse plugs melt and your tires go flat."

No matter, as I don't see now that you and I have philosophical differences about the correct procedures...I suspect that we can agree that none of which involve any heroic braking, nor daredevilish drivng to the gate, while just hoping that the fuse plugs don't melt first. I'll guess that we can also easilly agree that only an utter moron would even dream of continuing taxi, when/if there's even any likelihood of still having sufficient heat so as to melt the fuse plugs..especially into any congested area.

PS: I'll freely confess that some individuals just rub me the wrong way = NLC: "Then, of course, some of us have to limber up the vocal cords just a bit before we make our "Captain Cool" PA announcement regarding the predicament," "Captain Cool"???? Spare me/us/all. Any abnormals' no time to be concerned with how "Cool" you come accross as..It's time for proper evaluation and response...period. What he does with his vocal chords doesn't much concern me..or anyone in reality.

In any case...my apologies to all for getting mixed up in any distractions from the thread's proper purpose = a "Good Going" to those on that Madrid flight!!

 

[dariencc]

(I've been a captain for 12 years, and a 767ER captain for three of those.)

Tom

Good grief. Are we supposed to be impressed by this comical posturing, "Tom?"

As was pointed out, she was talking about using manual braking during this abnormal procedure. To which we correctly say, "Absolutely not."

As for the fuse plug issue, I think EastUS has summed it up nicely.

Betting than you've never captained a heavy, or landed in Madrid.

Is there a point here? What do previous landings in Madrid have to do with the question at hand? I've been there plenty of times myself and fail to see the relevance to this discussion. Do you know of some special consideration the rest of the aviation world may have missed? Every runway is well over 11000 feet long.

As for your three whole years captaining a heavy, we are not impressed, neither by your experience nor by your strangely immature use of it in your post. And we're talking about an A330, not a 76. MAX autobrakes is a takeoff only setting on the bus, Captain.

dariencc
18 year Captain
sound really cool on the PA

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Autobrakes are used in this situation.

Narrow body Airbus QRH says non-normal landing distances are based on maximum manual braking.

Sorry to be the one who has to point out your error.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[dariencc]

Narrow body Airbus QRH says non-normal landing distances are based on maximum manual braking.

Sorry to be the one who has to point out your error.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

Eureka!!! I have broken the code at last. You are not a Westie but a Cessna 150 driver who is merely posting in solidarity with that group.

The Madrid flight is handled by an A330, not an A320, just to be clear. The QRH landing distance calculations are based on manual braking so as to be fully within safe operating limits in the event of a failure or malfunction of the autobrakes. This is an entirely separate issue from the question of what method of braking should be used during this abnormal procedure. The manuals and common sense are fully in agreement on this one. Autobrakes are to be used.

It was a nice ruse while it lasted. I congratulate you. What gave it away was that no professional airline pilot would confuse the two issues of landing distance calculation and abnormal operating procedures.

Airline pilot indeed. Good one.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Thanks, as that was my intention, to acknowledge a supurb job.

Barry

Barry,
I am sure the pilots on that flight appreciate your thoughtful post. You had a crackerjack crew who managed the flap issue perfectly. I heard they landed 30 knots faster, but MAD's runway was long enough to handle it.

Later,
Eye

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Eureka!!! I have broken the code at last. You are not a Westie but a Cessna 150 driver who is merely posting in solidarity with that group.

The Madrid flight is handled by an A330, not an A320, just to be clear. The QRH landing distance calculations are based on manual braking so as to be fully within safe operating limits in the event of a failure or malfunction of the autobrakes. This is an entirely separate issue from the question of what method of braking should be used during this abnormal procedure. The manuals and common sense are fully in agreement on this one. Autobrakes are to be used.

It was a nice ruse while it lasted. I congratulate you. What gave it away was that no professional airline pilot would confuse the two issues of landing distance calculation and abnormal operating procedures.

Airline pilot indeed. Good one.

You mean to tell me that you super stud eastyz airliner poylots don't carry cajones big enough to fly a 321 over the pond? Oh, I am so shocked!!!

GMAFB!!

So let me get this straight. Even though your non-normal landing distance charts are based upon maximum manual braking, you will just go ahead and use autobrakes? I "only" fly the 320 series, but that aircraft has 4 settings of autobrakes: off, low, medium and max. Does the 330 have some other setting? On the 320's, max is used for RTO's only, med has a 2 second delay before onset, low has a 4 second delay. Off is off. So which one of these settings would you, the preeminent supreme airline professor deem it appropriate to use?

And just what explanation would you provide to the NTSB review board following an over-run should that ever occur using your "technique"? Huh? By the way, just to refresh your dimmed memory, here's actual verbage straight from the 320 and 330 QRH's:

WARNING
This information is for in-flight emergency use only. These distances
reflect the required landing distance only. The FAA additional runway
margin is not included. The published distances are based on the
following:
– Touchdown within 1,000’ from the approach end of the runway.
– Application of maximum manual braking


Maybe you'd rather have Semen or Seham - whatever - explain the logic of using autobrakes when this is the information found in an official aircraft manual. Yep - time to polish up those dancin' shoes my friend.......


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[sharktooth]

– Application of maximum manual braking

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

If you are an airline pilot, you apparently slept through the part about landing distances and charts.

If no, go ask your daddy.

 

[etops1]

i was working envoy on that flt . it happened again on the same a/c 277 phl mad on the 6 arriving into mad on the 7th. the airplane is still stuck in mad as we speak.

 

[Atlantic]

MAD has the longest runway in Europe. I think it's 14,000 +. It's an alt. landing runway for the space shuttle. A no flap / some flap landing in a wide body is an adventure. Way to go PHL!
Somebody remind me. Why did we buy these damn Airbus's.

 

[EastUS]

You mean to tell me that you super stud eastyz airliner poylots don't carry cajones big enough to fly a 321 over the pond? Oh, I am so shocked!!!

Take it easy "Captain Cool". We all "got it" from, your previous BS = Your solution to landing on a runway, that's pretty much long enough to even be suitable for the space shuttle...is to use maximum manual braking, and if you've got any tires left over..immediately taxi all the way to the gate before the fuse plugs melt...hoping that no tires explode and harm anyone and no fires result...sigh..OK then...Brilliant!!..What can anyone say to that?
Your performance data understanding's notable by it's utter absence...as is that of your grasp of autobrake systems. What else you don't know...I'm reluctant to even guess at, but said ignorance certainly encompasses at least brake cooling concepts, procedures and charted data as well:

NicelandingCaptain: "After you've stopped its simply a matter of getting to the gate before all the fuse plugs melt and your tires go flat."..Words simply fail me. Honestly..Are you actually even a pilot?

Again..To the Madrid crew = Well Done

 

[Atlantic]

The object is to get the A/C stoped on the runway. I would use the auto-brakes, they grab quicker. Case closed. But I'd ready on the binders if yellow lights started flashing with the system. The rest is a nonevent. You do the drill, and when it's safe, you taxi. And that's what these guys did. And no one on the ramp ended up blasted to BCN.
To the fellow from the west, most of the C/O's that fly the North Alantic became C/O's before AM West turned a wheel. Not to say we are better, we just been doing it longer.

 

[Phoenix]

... The QRH landing distance calculations are based on manual braking so as to be fully within safe operating limits in the event of a failure or malfunction of the autobrakes. This is an entirely separate issue from the question of what method of braking should be used during this abnormal procedure. ...

Airline pilot indeed. Good one.

Yes.. such a simple concept of deferring to a reasonable margin of caution was understood by my UPT students before their first solo... and we didn't even have auto brakes.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Well, it seems as though the peanut gallery is all fired up over this one. Fair enough.

You eastyz just continue to ad lib your procedures like you always have. Us west pilots will continue to follow the procedures provided in our manuals like we always have.



And we'll just leave it right there.........


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC