Joe Gordon to replace Gary Yingst

[The Goose]

You obviously have not read all my posts. I'll promote any organization that offers us hope, even a reorganized TWU. Right now we have NO HOPE with those who are running the TWU.

As far as AMFA representing Scabs , thats the Law. The IAM, TWU, ALPA, AFA, APFA and even IBT did and would do the same. You leave out the fact that AMFA also represents the best paid mechanics in the Airline Industry and that the sucesses that they had in the past benifitted mechanics throughout the industry, but you are probably one of those who believes that he is lucky to have a job.

Yes - scab representation is the law; that is, of course, if said representation doesn't choose to decertify itself and leave the property. What does that make your choice, Bob?

Best paid? Perhaps. Temporarily, that is, until Southwest's management wants larger bonuses from the company, rather than the stockholders as happened at AA. The workers will then, as has happened everywhere else, be hosed in an industry-standard manner.

As for the balance of your standard rhetoric, thanks for the entertainment. Got a good laugh from that.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

As I said to Bob, I agree completely. I don't like the idea of an unaccountable 'leadership'.

Evidently, Stewart and others attempted to do something about this years ago and were rebuffed; understandably so. Nobody likes to cede power - the TWU international, the US Congress and Senate or any individual or group whose collective ego(s), income, and sense of self worth depends on that power.

Yes - it's a rather simple fix - if allowed. I can't see that happening, but neither am I and others willing to trade one POS for another.

Are you saying AMFA is a POS?

AMFA is democratic. The twu is not. So, does one stink more than the other? Any "fix" needed in AMFA is already built in with the democratic process of elections by the membership. I did not get to vote for Mr. Gordon, or burchette or any one else in the international. Heck, even when I vote on a concessuionary contract my vote still doesn't count.

 

[Man of the People]

The placement of Joe Gordon to the top ATD spot is yet another example of how we have an undemocratic union. Once again we can count on having someone in place that could care less about the membership and be 100% loyal to the International AKA AA management alumni Jim Little.

Joe Gordon was voted out of office by his peers, the International removed him from the bag room and gave him an International position.

Would you pick somebody that you fired to be your boss? Thats basically what happened to TWU members with Jim Littles TWU. The membership fired Gordon so what does the TWU do? They promote him and put him in position above any elected officail in the TWU at AMR.

Does anyone out there actually think that Gordon will fight for the very same people who rejected him? In the TWU failure to lead is a prerequisite to promotion.

Can Gary Yingst be brought up on TWU charges for his conduct? He is, after all, a representative of the TWU. His alleged conduct, if true, should warrant removal from his position, especially in light of the fact, at the time of occurrence, he was the ATD Director of the TWU. I'm sure the TWU's already bashed image was damaged even further with this recent episode. Bob, if it were you on that plane, or any other employee, there is no doubt termination would have occurred. Does rank have its privileges? Apparently so.

 

[Bob Owens]

Can Gary Yingst be brought up on TWU charges for his conduct? He is, after all, a representative of the TWU. His alleged conduct, if true, should warrant removal from his position, especially in light of the fact, at the time of occurrence, he was the ATD Director of the TWU. I'm sure the TWU's already bashed image was damaged even further with this recent episode. Bob, if it were you on that plane, or any other employee, there is no doubt termination would have occurred. Does rank have its privileges? Apparently so.

If what is rumored is true then it certainly does not improve the members bargaining position. Since the company has not terminated him it would fair for the members to suspect that ultimately the membership will pay the price for his actions.

Jim Littles selection of Joe Gordon, proven loser over someone like Thom McDaniels, a proven leader, just goes to show how the TWU is AMRs in house lapdog union and under Jim Little AMR can expect Industry Leading concessionary contracts far into the future.

 

[eolesen]

Since the company has not terminated him

If he's still out on medical LOA, it just might not have happened yet.

 

[The Goose]

Are you saying AMFA is a POS?

AMFA is democratic. The twu is not. So, does one stink more than the other? Any "fix" needed in AMFA is already built in with the democratic process of elections by the membership. I did not get to vote for Mr. Gordon, or burchette or any one else in the international. Heck, even when I vote on a concessuionary contract my vote still doesn't count.

This 'fix' being built in hardly does any good when amfa has made a laughingstock of itself due to its amateur way of handling its affairs. OK - the old man got to call a strike at a major airline. It ended badly due to poor planning. Anyone willing to jump on this bandwagon again? Not me.

Any organization that promotes elitism is doomed to failure. OK - so we took three multiple-guess tests and have a third party's opinion we're qualified to wrench on an aircraft. The FAA requires, I believe, 1 certificated mechanic per 12 non-certificated mechs (please - correct me if I'm mistaken). Anything greater ratio than this is union negotiated and doesn't represent intrinsic value. The companies know this and use it on a regular basis against us. Elite status? Only if your contract holds up.

Where were the attorneys amfa promised after NWA mechanics were locked out/on strike? Even the real estate promoter McCormick ran away. Smart man - a DFR suit would have cleaned him out had one been filed.

Even the NWA people have said that voting would be held until the proper outcome was reached. Democracy? Of sorts.

My point was that while what we have sucks, there isn't much difference in what's available - I'd like to point out amfa is not the only option now since the Teamsters ceded from the AFL-CIO, freeing them from the no-raid policy that once made amfa the only available option for us to oust the TWU from power. Don't mistake that statement as a blurb for the reamsters - not so.

Bring me something better - much better than the present promotions and choices.

A POS? Yep - that's exactly what I said.

 

[Bob Owens]

Any organization that promotes elitism is doomed to failure.

Like ALPA, AFA, and every other craft union out there? The fact is Craft Unionism traces its roots back to the Middle ages, it has stood the test of time.

Industrial unionism did much to elevate the status of unskilled workers to the middle class however many Industrial Unions, like the TWU, have long since become Business Unions, lacking the ideology of true industrial Unionism and are willing to allow their memberships economic decline as a trade off for increased or simply maintenance of dues revenue. The appointment of Joe Gordon, a failed leader over Thom McDaniels, a proven leader, just reinforces the appearance that AMR has too much influence over the TWU/ATD.

I wouldnt be suprised if McDaniels where to take his members over to CWA/AFA where they should be. How does being in an AMR controlled union benifit SWA Flight Attendants?


12 to 1? Are you confusing the CC ratio with the FARs?

Show you something better? Well the fact is that as long as the TWU knows they dont have to do better they wont, going for any union puts them in a position where they have to perform, AA mechs always got better contracts when AMFA drives were in place. FSCs have lagged further and further behind because they never had any other options, even now mechs are better off than FSCs because the raises that AMFA put in place at NWA had to be nearly matched, so Title1 got a much bigger increase in 2001 than FSCs and other TWU members.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

"Any organization that promotes elitism is doomed to failure."

Elitism is when one person says they are better than another. I, and AMFA, have never said AMTs were better than another group. The elitism "definition" is one the twu tried using telling our FSC that AMTs think we are better than they are. We are not! A trained, skilled craft that wishes to promote and protect that particular craft only makes it a CRAFT union, not an industrial union.

Where is it written that AMTs can not belong to an AMT only union? The pilots and f/a, electricians, mason, plumbing, etc. unions do it. Why not AMTs? I do not mean to digress from this thread but it has steered this way.

By the way, is/was Joe Gordon an AMT?

 

[Bob Owens]

"Any organization that promotes elitism is doomed to failure."

Elitism is when one person says they are better than another. I, and AMFA, have never said AMTs were better than another group. The elitism "definition" is one the twu tried using telling our FSC that AMTs think we are better than they are. We are not! A trained, skilled craft that wishes to promote and protect that particular craft only makes it a CRAFT union, not an industrial union.

Where is it written that AMTs can not belong to an AMT only union? The pilots and f/a, electricians, mason, plumbing, etc. unions do it. Why not AMTs? I do not mean to digress from this thread but it has steered this way.

By the way, is/was Joe Gordon an AMT?

From what I've been told he was a DFW Local President who was voted out of office. He was a FSC, the TWU/ATD obviously saw someone who would not be troubled with screwing over the members and they picked him up.

As far as all that "elitism" crap Goose and many other TWU loyalists seem to feel that mechanics are elitists if they want to belong to a union that specializes in representing mechanics however its OK for pilots, Flight attendants, plumbers, mailmen, actors etc. Funny how he accepts the fact that even within the TWU the workers at SWA are kept completely seperate, but they are not "elitists".

 

[ch53D]

If he's still out on medical LOA, it just might not have happened yet.

If it was I or you the company would have canned us so they wouldn’t have to pay the insurance. We both know with double hip surgery we would not be on a flight that soon. The mishap most certainly happened before surgery.

 

[ch53D]

My point was that while what we have sucks, there isn't much difference in what's available - I'd like to point out amfa is not the only option now since the Teamsters ceded from the AFL-CIO, freeing them from the no-raid policy that once made amfa the only available option for us to oust the TWU from power. Don't mistake that statement as a blurb for the reamsters - not so.

Goose, will you please set up to the plate for once. Call this guy in the link below and see about getting a union better then AMFA, our own union, or the TWU.

http://twu.com/homeindex/IBT.PDF

 

[The Goose]

Goose, will you please set up to the plate for once. Call this guy in the link below and see about getting a union better then AMFA, our own union, or the TWU.

http://twu.com/homeindex/IBT.PDF

As time goes on, I've become extremely disgusted with union and company shenanigans; I'm really not interested in fighting with either anymore. As an example, a recount was called for one of the positions in the recent Local 514 election and sure enough, the three votes were found to install a person of favor, rather than the original winner of that position - not the person the individual calling for the recount wanted, but ...

I'm not planning on hanging around this industry. I've been working on restarting a business I had moderate success with 25 years ago and am having a bit of success now - just enough so that at first my first opportunity, I'm bailing out - retiring to pursue it farther. That could be any time as I'm eligible to do so right now and have been for a while. Rumor has it (hopefully true) there'll be some retirement incentive offered to us old farts to get the upcoming contract ratified; a buyout/sellout of sorts as was the case some years ago. Not exactly how I'd hoped to do things, but I do place a value on what sanity I have left.

Have at it ch, and rotsa ruck.

 

[ch53D]

As time goes on, I've become extremely disgusted with union and company shenanigans; I'm really not interested in fighting with either anymore. As an example, a recount was called for one of the positions in the recent Local 514 election and sure enough, the three votes were found to install a person of favor, rather than the original winner of that position - not the person the individual calling for the recount wanted, but ...

I'm not planning on hanging around this industry. I've been working on restarting a business I had moderate success with 25 years ago and am having a bit of success now - just enough so that at first my first opportunity, I'm bailing out - retiring to pursue it farther. That could be any time as I'm eligible to do so right now and have been for a while. Rumor has it (hopefully true) there'll be some retirement incentive offered to us old farts to get the upcoming contract ratified; a buyout/sellout of sorts as was the case some years ago. Not exactly how I'd hoped to do things, but I do place a value on what sanity I have left.

Have at it ch, and rotsa ruck.

Goose, for someone who really doesn’t care sure spends a lot of time running his month on this board. I see your true colors have came out here. It’s all about ME.

 

[The Goose]

"Any organization that promotes elitism is doomed to failure."

Elitism is when one person says they are better than another. I, and AMFA, have never said AMTs were better than another group. The elitism "definition" is one the twu tried using telling our FSC that AMTs think we are better than they are. We are not! A trained, skilled craft that wishes to promote and protect that particular craft only makes it a CRAFT union, not an industrial union.

Where is it written that AMTs can not belong to an AMT only union? The pilots and f/a, electricians, mason, plumbing, etc. unions do it. Why not AMTs? I do not mean to digress from this thread but it has steered this way.

By the way, is/was Joe Gordon an AMT?

The term "coattail riders", among many other terms coming from so-called "informational meetings" comes to mind, not from you directly perhaps, but from others attempting to stir emotion and support. "If it weren't for these __________ (fill in the blank), we could get the company to pay us more". Ring a bell?

"Where is it written that AMTs can not belong to an AMT only union? The pilots and f/a, electricians, mason, plumbing, etc. unions do it. Why not AMTs?" It's not written, and that's fine - have our own totally separate association or union - leave the other trades and jobs out of it - leave the "related" out of the equation. See to it the followers don't piss off the other trades along the way as a matter of practice and just maybe we could get some support rather than jeers due to the chest-thumping and ego displays by some of our trade's members.

The term "craft" as used by the amfa supporters has always amused me. Since when is running a wrench or rivet gun a "craft"? Perhaps many years of experience could qualify a individual as a "Tradesmaster", but we remove and replace things on a large machine. The word "craft" implies a certain amount of artistry - removing and replacing an "H" link is hardly artistry. A joke years ago referred to a garbage man as a "sanitation engineer". Implied elevation of status simply by a change of terminology does not impress me, rather, I and others find this quite laughable and only a show of desperation in seeking status, however well deserved, by our trade.

Finally, your association's (AMTA) patron saint, Charles Taylor, was a tradesman - a machinist; one of a trade that I've personally heard belittled by amfa supporters many times. Building an engine as he did from aluminum, from scratch, would not be an easy feat today with modern basic machinery - God only knows what he had to contend with in building his lightweight 12 hp engine for the Wright Brothers.

I do believe, however, that were Mr. Taylor alive and physically able today, he would attempt to slap the arrogance out of more than a few aircraft mechanics.

FYI - as I understand it, Joe Gordon was a FSC in DFW or AFW that sucked his way to the international level. Doesn't sound promising.

 

[The Goose]

Goose, for someone who really doesn’t care sure spends a lot of time running his month on this board. I see your true colors have came out here. It’s all about ME.

Hardly - I'm not gonna be here. Go ahead and twist it, though - rather funny.