JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[Jester]

LAA PHX fleet got contracted out in BK

Josh

TWU are back on N3 (North 3) with a couple of gates. Not many of the AA guys compared to the US guys, but there are two different work groups and been that way for over a year.

 

[737823]

Crema check out average salary and benefits in 2016 for “all other non pilot” at AA and then compare to peers at UAL and Delta.

We are currently dramatically below our counterparts in both metrics. (Admittedly with higher employment numbers though)

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

Hey Weez you should work for Swelbar as a research assistant and transfer to BOS/507 to be with your buddy TH. I have a rental property in Cambridge you could have ven be my tenant next year!

Josh

 

[737823]

TWU are back on N3 (North 3) with a couple of gates. Not many of the AA guys compared to the US guys, but there are two different work groups and been that way for over a year.

I guess PHX hit 7300 LAA departures. Been many years since I’ve been there, AA was still in T3 and it was AA 500 PHX-MIA (which is now an LUS #)

Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey Weez you should work for Swelbar as a research assistant and transfer to BOS/507 to be with your buddy TH. I have a rental property in Cambridge you could have ven be my tenant next year!

Josh

Joshua if your real identity is in AA Management in the area of Negotiations, I offer my apologies for sharing that information. You do know I prefer to get to the real facts wherever I can locate them.

We do much better in life I’ve found by being as honest and transparent as possible.

Don’t you agree?

Josh

 

[737823]

Weez you should move to BOS and work for Swelbar at the airline data project.

Come up and out of a right to work state to the Commonwealth of MA. You know BOS has one of the strongest union cultural traditions in the country, right? History of Irish and Italian leadership in the movement.

Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

Weez you should move to BOS and work for Swelbar at the airline data project.

Come up and out of a right to work state to the Commonwealth of MA. You know BOS has one of the strongest union cultural traditions in the country, right? History of Irish and Italian leadership in the movement.

Josh

We do much better in life I’ve found by being as honest and transparent as possible.

Don’t you agree?

Josh


Nah. I’m done with the cold weather in my life Josh.

Josh

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Well, here's the point most don't want to acknowledge. We can make the comparison you did and ask for exactly what you proposed, but in turn, the Company will want and expect to have some of the items that benefit them which are included in other CBA's. For instance, the UAL CBA has scope and medical advantages while the DL policies allow for more flexibility and the ability to spread their Labor expenses across non-union workers that do not have the same pay and benefits as other legacy airline employees.

So, yes, we can have some of the items you ask for but in exchange for what? Surely, the Company would want some of the advantages other airlines have within the Labor Agreements.

Then the argument goes towards, well they're making billions. Yes, they are, but the driver of what we may or may not get goes beyond profits. It is more directly tied to the stock price. This part quarter the Company made a billion dollars in profit, and the stock price dropped by double-digit percentage points. Why? Mostly because they didn't make as much as they could have and lagged behind other airlines in expenses while not sufficiently growing their revenues.

To see what challenges we face, we need to look at other airlines CBA's, and not just the parts we like but also the parts we don't like because that may be the proposed exchange.

The airline industry is a copycat industry as they try to maintain a close comparator in expenses while finding ways to maximize revenue. They usually all go up together and they all come down together.

the argument gets subjective now. if this becomes the case, then american airlines needs to drop all of it's flimsy propaganda; 'leap of faith', 'team members'...etc. i don't see aa as being totally inflexible. we aren't talking lorenzo or icahn. i did take parker at his word and wrongly believed that this would be done already. the toggle switch still has room to move before one could call parker a scrooge type ceo. i do believe we will get the compensation that would make me happy, but parker will make us suffer to get it, time is on his side, not ours.

the items i ask for are exchanged for aa getting items they desire. aa medical and lead/cc language.

in an era of unprecedented airline profits, the association can say with hat in hand, we are giving you 2 concessions. this is powerful stuff at the table, we are offering you, 2 major (ok, exaggerate a bit on cc language) concessions. in return, this is what we want.

to me, the hardest part is not getting what i ask for, the hardest part is the association (iam part) cushioning the blow for it's membership (lus). if one can't sell to joe lunchbox at lus - who was earning $20/hr in 2013 with lus insurance, that it will economically behoove them to earn $36/hr by 2022 with laa insurance, there isn't anything, anyone can do for them.

- as far as the stock price. i don't see any correlation between the stock price and the value of our contract. as a fact, aa is indeed growing revenues. the company's stock/market cap are undervalued for other reasons, reasons that the aa CFO and CEO decided upon (stock buybacks x paying down debt). this is according to the majority of analysts, who cover the airlines. the stock isn't undervalued because fleet service earns $31/hr.

aa also has a weak dividend, compared to dl. aa has to be careful here, because if they demand what dl has and does, then i can see us getting a much more generous profit sharing check. perhaps aa knows this and isn't eager to allow a 3rd party to potentially open it's future profits to it's workers?

one intangible is the time that dl has had to synergize it's nw merger. give aa the same time for it's lus synergies and watch the revenues grow even more. throw in the shale oil/jet fuel and we understand parker's enthusiasm going forward.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Crema check out average salary and benefits in 2016 for “all other non pilot” at AA and then compare to peers at UAL and Delta.

We are currently dramatically below our counterparts in both metrics. (Admittedly with higher employment numbers though)

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

it doesn't surprise me at all, i guess we need official statistics to verify what we believe.

in recent months, they hired a few more 'level 2' bmas agents for my work area. good people for sure, the MBR numbers are getting better all the time. i still believe that if the company gave us some or all envoy work back, the numbers would be even better. i also believe they know this and may even be weighing giving us that work back.

level 2 bmas agent earns low $30s starting?

time is on the company's side.

 

[cltrat]

Wouldn’t that be insubordination if I didn’t follow orders?

700 used the insubordination justification to IAM scabbing AMFA at NWA in 2005.

Josh

no one mentioned ordered except you, I think it was quite clear what I meant and equally clear what your course of action you would take

 

[gulfcoast1]

the argument gets subjective now. if this becomes the case, then american airlines needs to drop all of it's flimsy propaganda; 'leap of faith', 'team members'...etc. i don't see aa as being totally inflexible. we aren't talking lorenzo or icahn. i did take parker at his word and wrongly believed that this would be done already. the toggle switch still has room to move before one could call parker a scrooge type ceo. i do believe we will get the compensation that would make me happy, but parker will make us suffer to get it, time is on his side, not ours.

the items i ask for are exchanged for aa getting items they desire. aa medical and lead/cc language.

in an era of unprecedented airline profits, the association can say with hat in hand, we are giving you 2 concessions. this is powerful stuff at the table, we are offering you, 2 major (ok, exaggerate a bit on cc language) concessions. in return, this is what we want.

to me, the hardest part is not getting what i ask for, the hardest part is the association (iam part) cushioning the blow for it's membership (lus). if one can't sell to joe lunchbox at lus - who was earning $20/hr in 2013 with lus insurance, that it will economically behoove them to earn $36/hr by 2022 with laa insurance, there isn't anything, anyone can do for them.

- as far as the stock price. i don't see any correlation between the stock price and the value of our contract. as a fact, aa is indeed growing revenues. the company's stock/market cap are undervalued for other reasons, reasons that the aa CFO and CEO decided upon (stock buybacks x paying down debt). this is according to the majority of analysts, who cover the airlines. the stock isn't undervalued because fleet service earns $31/hr.

aa also has a weak dividend, compared to dl. aa has to be careful here, because if they demand what dl has and does, then i can see us getting a much more generous profit sharing check. perhaps aa knows this and isn't eager to allow a 3rd party to potentially open it's future profits to it's workers?

one intangible is the time that dl has had to synergize it's nw merger. give aa the same time for it's lus synergies and watch the revenues grow even more. throw in the shale oil/jet fuel and we understand parker's enthusiasm going forward.

This is the first I have heard of changes to Crew Chiefs. What is being talked about here? I think if this would mean a Crew Chief paycut, AA will find itself very short on experienced Crew Chiefs. I cannot see myself voting for any TA that includes a paycut for anyone.

 

[Tim Nelson]

the argument gets subjective now. if this becomes the case, then american airlines needs to drop all of it's flimsy propaganda; 'leap of faith', 'team members'...etc. i don't see aa as being totally inflexible. we aren't talking lorenzo or icahn. i did take parker at his word and wrongly believed that this would be done already. the toggle switch still has room to move before one could call parker a scrooge type ceo. i do believe we will get the compensation that would make me happy, but parker will make us suffer to get it, time is on his side, not ours.

the items i ask for are exchanged for aa getting items they desire. aa medical and lead/cc language.

in an era of unprecedented airline profits, the association can say with hat in hand, we are giving you 2 concessions. this is powerful stuff at the table, we are offering you, 2 major (ok, exaggerate a bit on cc language) concessions. in return, this is what we want.

to me, the hardest part is not getting what i ask for, the hardest part is the association (iam part) cushioning the blow for it's membership (lus). if one can't sell to joe lunchbox at lus - who was earning $20/hr in 2013 with lus insurance, that it will economically behoove them to earn $36/hr by 2022 with laa insurance, there isn't anything, anyone can do for them.

- as far as the stock price. i don't see any correlation between the stock price and the value of our contract. as a fact, aa is indeed growing revenues. the company's stock/market cap are undervalued for other reasons, reasons that the aa CFO and CEO decided upon (stock buybacks x paying down debt). this is according to the majority of analysts, who cover the airlines. the stock isn't undervalued because fleet service earns $31/hr.

aa also has a weak dividend, compared to dl. aa has to be careful here, because if they demand what dl has and does, then i can see us getting a much more generous profit sharing check. perhaps aa knows this and isn't eager to allow a 3rd party to potentially open it's future profits to it's workers?

one intangible is the time that dl has had to synergize it's nw merger. give aa the same time for it's lus synergies and watch the revenues grow even more. throw in the shale oil/jet fuel and we understand parker's enthusiasm going forward.

Exchanges are just cost neutral negotiations. Why should we exchange or pay for other items when the company is making billions? It doesnt work that way in negotiations when very smart people are representing us, at least it didnt work like that while the company lost billions. I wish the company would have been as sweet as our unions and exchanged things, instead of taking things without exchanging items.
Some posters on here are too soft. This isnt about exchanging but rather participating in billions of profits. For lus it makes zero sense to give up health care other than the union selling it out.

 

[Steve Walegir]

This is the first I have heard of changes to Crew Chiefs. What is being talked about here? I think if this would mean a Crew Chief paycut, AA will find itself very short on experienced Crew Chiefs. I cannot see myself voting for any TA that includes a paycut for anyone.

If anything they would probably try to use the lus language for cc or leads meaning they are a more active part of the crew as opposed to how things generally are on the LAA side where the cc gives directions and inputs loads. I don't think a pay cut for cc is happening but having them work more on flights could be discussed. Another thing would be how at lus management can direct the workforce, I'm sure they want that too.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

This is the first I have heard of changes to Crew Chiefs. What is being talked about here? I think if this would mean a Crew Chief paycut, AA will find itself very short on experienced Crew Chiefs. I cannot see myself voting for any TA that includes a paycut for anyone.

no, it's not about pay cuts for C/Cs. it's about the company wanting to change the language/work rules. this was leaked out awhile ago...the company is HOT for this. the current company big shooters are used to lower-level management directing the workforce, including lus 'leads', on a flight by flight basis.

gone will be the days of C/Cs sitting in a chair all day watching tv.

Exchanges are just cost neutral negotiations. Why should we exchange or pay for other items when the company is making billions? It doesnt work that way in negotiations when very smart people are representing us, at least it didnt work like that while the company lost billions. I wish the company would have been as sweet as our unions and exchanged things, instead of taking things without exchanging items.
Some posters on here are too soft. This isnt about exchanging but rather participating in billions of profits. For lus it makes zero sense to give up health care other than the union selling it out.

again, i don't argue. i agree and sympathize.

the company doesn't have to do the 'right' thing or the 'fair' thing...and, they won't.

everything and anything is considered a job action in today's usa and the depending on who aa would take to court, the twu/iam or both would be on the hook for millions of dollars in fines.

those in power now, it's a loser talking about reality. for those trying to gain power, i understand that this is how you need to talk.

 

[NYer]

the argument gets subjective now. if this becomes the case, then american airlines needs to drop all of it's flimsy propaganda; 'leap of faith', 'team members'...etc. i don't see aa as being totally inflexible. we aren't talking lorenzo or icahn. i did take parker at his word and wrongly believed that this would be done already. the toggle switch still has room to move before one could call parker a scrooge type ceo. i do believe we will get the compensation that would make me happy, but parker will make us suffer to get it, time is on his side, not ours.

the items i ask for are exchanged for aa getting items they desire. aa medical and lead/cc language.

in an era of unprecedented airline profits, the association can say with hat in hand, we are giving you 2 concessions. this is powerful stuff at the table, we are offering you, 2 major (ok, exaggerate a bit on cc language) concessions. in return, this is what we want.

to me, the hardest part is not getting what i ask for, the hardest part is the association (iam part) cushioning the blow for it's membership (lus). if one can't sell to joe lunchbox at lus - who was earning $20/hr in 2013 with lus insurance, that it will economically behoove them to earn $36/hr by 2022 with laa insurance, there isn't anything, anyone can do for them.

- as far as the stock price. i don't see any correlation between the stock price and the value of our contract. as a fact, aa is indeed growing revenues. the company's stock/market cap are undervalued for other reasons, reasons that the aa CFO and CEO decided upon (stock buybacks x paying down debt). this is according to the majority of analysts, who cover the airlines. the stock isn't undervalued because fleet service earns $31/hr.

aa also has a weak dividend, compared to dl. aa has to be careful here, because if they demand what dl has and does, then i can see us getting a much more generous profit sharing check. perhaps aa knows this and isn't eager to allow a 3rd party to potentially open it's future profits to it's workers?

one intangible is the time that dl has had to synergize it's nw merger. give aa the same time for it's lus synergies and watch the revenues grow even more. throw in the shale oil/jet fuel and we understand parker's enthusiasm going forward.

Stock price and the expense ratio as it relates to the revenue is what has kept the stock price low. This past quarter they made a $1B in profits and the stock price dropped by double-digit percentage points. Stock price is no longer based on actual profits, but potential profits and without hitting the target the stock price goes down. Stock buy-back is something that helps the stock price in the future as it limits the supply and raises the value. In May Delta announced a $5B stock buy-back. Last summer UA announced their own $2B stock buy-back. It is what Corporate America does when they have large profits.

You may be correct that revenue can still tick up, but they also will want to maintain control of their expenses or the revenue rise will not manifest itself to increased profits, which is what the shareholders and Wall Street expect. The entire industry is always comparing themselves to each other. It is the reason wages have been going up so steadily and without much resistance, but in turn other airlines have gained advatanges in other areas and that will be the target of AA.

 

[WeAAsles]

it doesn't surprise me at all, i guess we need official statistics to verify what we believe.

in recent months, they hired a few more 'level 2' bmas agents for my work area. good people for sure, the MBR numbers are getting better all the time. i still believe that if the company gave us some or all envoy work back, the numbers would be even better. i also believe they know this and may even be weighing giving us that work back.

level 2 bmas agent earns low $30s starting?

time is on the company's side.

I think we still (Like many on Wall Street too) have many members that aren’t seeing the Forrest through the trees just yet. I’m not sure if a lot of them aren’t suffering from PTSD and won’t ever be able to find a cure for themselves?

You keep bringing up the time Delta had to put it all together after the NW merger. Of course, absolutely. AA has barely begun to put together it’s synergies yet and the World has fundamentally changed for Major N American Airlines in general.

Oh and as far as cost savings in our group. The Company has been hiring kids like crazy (Transitioning) getting them up, online and proficient before they can offer some type of incentive for us older (more costly) employees to leave. I firmly believe it’s coming in time. Bringing down their overall average Labor costs for the entire Association Membership.

Besides that. The Association said they were going to go for a 5 year pay progression scale in Fleet. Sorry but no freakin way IMO. No way would they offer $36 (If you hit that nail on the head) and let some 18 year old new hire kid hit it by 23. Uh, uh, nope. That lag of 12 years is what gives the Company the ability to compensate us old farts fantastically well in the first place. (At best maybe they can capture an 11 year scale and say it beats the industry 12)

Crew Chiefs BTW at AA already have the language to “assist” the crew as needed. Just need to define and clarify what that means a little better. And Management already can talk to the CC’s, don’t really need them to direct anything since that would be rather redundant. We don’t need to add another level to the operation.