IT''S OFFICIAL!

[UAL24]

Spacewaitress,

Your opinion matters even less. You lay blame solely on the pilots for the demise of UAL. What about customer sevice. We have been rated near the bottom of inflight sevice, except international in the Pacific where your Singapore girls are on the flights, long before Contract 2000 . A smile and a friendly attitude to your customers is what sets apart the Southwest's in world from the United's. I know I know of course you will respond that YOU always provide exceptional inflight service and YOU always bend over backwards for your customers. Guess it is only 2 or 3 of your 23,000 strong that provides crappy service and has given UAL the worst Customer Service rating in the business. Oh I forgot, it's the pilots. We serve so many drinks and are rude to all the customers in flight from behind our steel reinforced cage. When was the last time you were upset that a flight was full and you would actually have to work. If you haven't done that you are one of three in the whole company.

So sit there on your jump seat reading your Cosmo and blaming the pilots for all of our problems. That First Class customer looking at you wondering if he might bother you for a drink will continue to wait until you get over your current tizzy. "Don't expect me to be nice because I have had a bad day and want everybody around me to know about it" is your motto. Can't think of a time that the customers have logged a complaint about a pilot providing crummy inflight sevice, losing their bag, or delaying their departure because the plane was broke with the exception of 2months 2 years ago. You have 1 scope provision and it concerns your commrades in Sinagpore.

Bear96,

I as a pilot am fully aware of the damage we did 2 years ago and take full responsibility. It was a mistake on our part and mgt. We are indeed paying a price now but do not use the pilots as cover for 20 years of lousy inflight service. I don't suppose any of the CHAOS campaigns ever affected customer service? AFA leadership has in my opinion done a good job the last 2 weeks. They want clear direction from the company and a leader in place then they will give up the money. Let's see if they mean it. In the mean time lets ALL provide our customers the service they deserve from the gate until a safe landing at destination. All of it on time of course.

 

[Bear96]

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On 9/3/2002 1:59:11 PM

Yes, the gravy train is over for the pilots, there never has been a gravy train for the flight attendants. I think most of us (flight attendants) who are serious about our futures here at UAL see the handwriting on the wall. But your insults about AFA are just wrong. We have a very strong scope clause that United is trying to eliminate. We won't deal on that. Your opinion doesn't matter.

The pilots went a long way to ruin this great airline in y2k, and indeed we lost many of our best customers. It is time for them to take responsibility and make it right. They seem collectively to understand that. It's called hysterical mass guilt. [] []
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Actually spacewaitress I think UAL24 is right-- F/As will see paycuts and eventually when cabotage laws are eased and our scope clause is thrown out by a BK judge (which would be very easy to do should UAL choose to go that route and if we haven't negotiated an agreement beforehand) some of our flights may be operated by Star Alliance, Inc. crew from another Star Alliance division (like Thai). But then *A pilots will be operating those flights as well so this will effect the pilots too. The writing is indeed on the wall that UAL wants to go after our scope clause-- just look at their proposed settlement of the Avolar scope clause issue in the term sheet.

However I think you are right on about the Summer of 2000. It is still a bit amusing (and sad) to me that so many pilots really don't seem to realize or acknowledge the long-term effects of actions (or perceptions, which is everything in a service biz like UAL) from two years ago, which is making our current situation even worse than it needs to be.

 

[UAL24]

Bear,

I guess I will say this slowly. Yes, we the Pilots, did damage to the company 2 years ago. It was 2 years ago. Since then our ontime ranking has soared. Where has our Customer Service ranking been? Are you trying to imply that F/A service levels do not affect the ability of a company to make money? I guess LUV's reputation for happy service with a smile has nothing to do with their success? You seem much more rational than Spacewaitress and my comments were directed to it. Since the summer of 2000 the CSR's have staged a slowdown, the mechanics have staged a slow down, and the FA's have implemented CHAOS all because of management handlings of contract negotiations. You have all conveniently blamed the pilots for all of our woes because you could. Paycheck envy always exists and thats fine. When it's your turn to negotiate your new contract in 06 let's see how much service disruption you put in place. Same said for IAM, and ALPA. Like I said the Pilots have little to nothing to do with Customer Service levels and they are abysmal here at UAL historically. Thats your job. My job is to get the people there safely. So far I and my commrades have 100% success rate at that. Unless you want to blame us pilots for 9/11 or UAL232 or HNL 747? Like to go there?

256,000 as published by the Denver post. That is the average pilot WOW. I am above average so I guess I make what 400,000 a year. Hey mechanics I also saw that the average wrencher makes $102,000. Wow you guys do pretty good. Don't spend it all in one place. Thought you could just go out anywhere and make that kind of money? If that is average guess the high end mechs make 200,000 per year. Average F/A salary was quoted at $58,000 a year. Guess the High end Senior Mammas make over $100,000 a year. If you choose to use the numbers the media reports please be prepared to abandon your usuall defenses of " I can't make it on my salary but those darn pilots".

If you want to make more money start a successfull business, go to school and earn more degrees, or change careers. There is a reason each person in those skilled vs unskilled fields make different wages.

 

[mastermechanic]

Crew chief my arse...no staying behind flyboy, I was 0331 weapons company 2/8. I was on the second US chopper in Grenada (operation urgent fury) and spent 8 mos in Beruit Lebanon (multi-national peacekeeping force). My platoon left with 32 people, we came home with 18. Want to continue quid pro quo my friend...and you call me a disgrace.

 

[mastermechanic]

And in what may seem as a contradiction, I am not a total pilot hater. When I lateral moved into aviation, I came to know some of the best pilots in the business. Straight up flyers, hard chargers, not career officers and office boys. We saw eye to eye, and I mothered those birds like a hawk...sometimes a little too tight and they'd get mad cause I shut down a flight...but if I had anything to do with it, we were not losing anybody to a bad bird. I still maintain that ethic...even for being such a disgrace....

 

[Bear96]

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On 9/3/2002 2:51:29 PM

Bear96,

I as a pilot am fully aware of the damage we did 2 years ago and take full responsibility. We are indeed paying a price now but do not use the pilots as cover for 20 years of lousy inflight service.
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I am not sure how you interpreted my posting to mean I am blaming lousy inflight service on the pilots (???).

But now that you mention it, I remember a "town meeting" with UAL management several years ago in which their research had shown that something like "F/A friendliness" is much less of a factor when a passenger is deciding to repurchase a ticket on a certain carrier than are other factors such as ticket price, and reliability.

An employee group that has an average total annual compensation (salary plus benefits) of $250K while the rest of the airline employees in their entirety has an average compensation of $86K may influence the ticket price and our ability to get costs down more than the other work groups, wouldn't you say? (Numbers from UAL Corp.)

And I don't think you can blame F/As "reading Cosmo on their jumpseats" for our reliability stats two years ago. I think more people left UAL that summer than all we miserable F/As could ever drive away-- and we sure do try, by listening to you!

Do I blame pilots for "everything" that is wrong at UAL? Certainly not. But I have been a bit amazed by how two weeks ago pilots were out there telling everyone that we have to "pull together" and "do our part" and how AFA was being stubborn, and since last Thursday suddenly the pilots have been very quiet.

What happened to the team spirit? And the martyrdom postings here from pilots about "Once again, we will have to be the leaders to get out of this-- and when we recover, you F/As had better not dare to ask for another raise because UAL's recovery is all because of US PILOTS!"

 

[UAL24]

Ah master you have reared your ignorant head. Who would you like to threaten an ass woopin with today. Hard to believe you used to be in the military you do great discredit to my fellow veterans and I. Guess all the Pilot types who actually flew in combat shouldn't have been payed more than the teenage crew chiefs who waited for them back at base? Praise god guys like you were on the pointy end of the speer. You are a disgrace.

 

[Taipan]

Not trying to throw gas on the fire but at my station , there never was any kind of slowdown (IAM) unless you count massive staffing shortages and injuries and fmla etc[:halo:]

 

[mastermechanic]

Now,now...don't go an being making 'em pilots mad...no siryee..em's the boss and they show be showing us the door if'n we be disrespectful...wez be sorry master pilot sir...wez be sorry...don't you pay these people no mind boss...wez all glad you'm up there saving the day...yes sir..we be glad[:bigsmile:]

 

[Bear96]

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On 9/3/2002 3:39:24 PM

Bear,

I guess I will say this slowly. Yes, we the Pilots, did damage to the company 2 years ago. It was 2 years ago.
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Thanks for speaking so slowly. I guess you missed my point earlier so I will speak slowly too-- yes it was two years ago some pilots are still not aware of or willing to acknowledge the LASTING damage from two years ago. In an earlier post you said you were aware of it but now I am not so sure.

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Are you trying to imply that F/A service levels do not affect the ability of a company to make money?
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Uh, yeah, that's EXACTLY what I said. (?) I guess my point was more we could provide the best service in the industry, but watch out, tick those pilots off and it won't matter until they get their way.

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Since the summer of 2000 the CSR's have staged a slowdown, the mechanics have staged a slow down, and the FA's have implemented CHAOS all because of management handlings of contract negotiations.
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That's news to me, and to the public as well-- I don't remember reading anything like that in the media and you know how the media just loves to blow job actions at airlines all out of proportion! We had a few informational picketings if that is what you are referring to but I don't recall one delay or cancellation because of a CSR or F/A action in this regard.

And BTW I fully realize and support the necessity and role of legal job actions when necessary in a labor dispute, as it has proven to be the ONLY way to get management's attention when necessary. What I do have a problem with is the abdication of any responsibility for such job actions, and their aftermath.

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Paycheck envy always exists and thats fine...

...If you want to make more money start a successfull business, go to school and earn more degrees, or change careers. There is a reason each person in those skilled vs unskilled fields make different wages.
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Not sure where that came from as I wasn't complaining about the wages I make but as I have said here before I have no problem with pilots making significantly more money than F/As-- that is how it should be in our economic system. But when salaries reach unsustainable limits, the people enjoying them should realize that their golden goose is about to die.

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Like I said the Pilots have little to nothing to do with Customer Service levels and they are abysmal here at UAL historically. Thats your job.
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Agreed. I have no problem with that. And there are certainly some people in front-line, customer contact positions at UAL who shouldn't be there. But taking care of that problem is management's job, so I don't know why you seem to be bitter at me about it.

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My job is to get the people there safely. So far I and my commrades have 100% success rate at that. Unless you want to blame us pilots for 9/11 or UAL232 or HNL 747? Like to go there?
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???? Dude you're awfully touchy today-- WHO went there? Wasn't me. UAL's committment to safety is one thing all of us can be proud of.

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256,000 as published by the Denver post. That is the average pilot WOW. I am above average so I guess I make what 400,000 a year. Hey mechanics I also saw that the average wrencher makes $102,000. Wow you guys do pretty good. Don't spend it all in one place. Thought you could just go out anywhere and make that kind of money? If that is average guess the high end mechs make 200,000 per year. Average F/A salary was quoted at $58,000 a year. Guess the High end Senior Mammas make over $100,000 a year. If you choose to use the numbers the media reports please be prepared to abandon your usuall defenses of " I can't make it on my salary but those darn pilots".
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I was quoting from a UAL Corp. source, not the media.

 

[UAL777flyer]

spacewaitress,

Whether you think my opinion matters is completely irrelevant. Have you ever gone through an airline bankruptcy before? I have. You have no idea how badly a judge would cut apart your contract. UA F/A's maybe aren't the top scale paid f/a's in the industry. But they are in the upper tier. Considering that fact and the fact that UA will have the highest labor costs in the industry, what do you think a judge is going to decide when the company petitions for massive changes to your pay and work rules, including scope? You need to realize that this company is going to restructure the easy way or the hard way. If you refuse to deal and roll the dice with bankruptcy, your union will have virtually no say in the changes that are forced upon you, which most likely will be deeper than what the company is asking for at the present time. Quit wasting time and energy with distracting issues like whose fault it is that we're at this point. They are completely counter-productive to the task at hand. Instead offer up some solutions to help fix this problem.

You don't deal on scope? That's nice. But your scope will be worthless in a Chapter 11 proceeding. So your union should get the best it can now, because in bankruptcy, the company will whip out the Ginsu and petition for some painful cuts. All you're doing at this point is fighting the inevitable.

767jetz,

Let me be a bit more clear. I am not advocating that the unions should take the proposals outlined last week. What I'm saying is that if those offers aren't acceptable, than there is time to re-work the proposals so they're a bit more acceptable. Basically it's just shuffling the cards to get to the same bottom line number. But everyone needs to recognize that no matter what proposal is adopted (either inside our outside of bankruptcy), it is going to be extremely painful for all of us. There is just no way around that fact.

As for Tilton, I welcome his selection and hope that he proves to be the leader we've needed for a long time. But anyone who thinks he's going to come out with a plan for UA to start growing right away is dreaming. Like it or not, some cuts are going to be needed until our financial picture is stabilized and the economy rebounds.

 

[spacewaitress]

...

 

[Tango-Bravo]

Such dissension within the ranks! (which thankfully does not include me) As a customer of UA, I am saddened to see what management has done to your otherwise fine airline. Above all, you all need to stop blaming the pilots or the F/As or CHAOS or the mechanics...it's the management stupid!

That is why I find myself supporting the position taken by spacewaitress 110% -- also helps that UA's F/As are among the best of the U.S. airlines I have flown over the past several years.

On the other hand, if the thinking exemplified by UAL777flyer had prevailed during the Revolutionary War against Britain, the U.S. (and Canada) would have remained an exploited Colony of the British Crown. Likewise, some 165 years later, Britain itself would have surrendered to Hitler's Nazi Germany (rather than expose themselves to the same "inevitable" horrific fate as Poland, France, Belgium and Holland).

The "let's get on board with (now it's) Tilton" talk is a bunch of knee-jerk folly IMO -- it is first and foremost up to the new man at the top (who is getting paid the big $$$) to show that he can lead by proposing a viable plan that takes all parties concerned (including the employee-55% owners of UA most of all) into respectful consideration; only after that has happened does it become incumbent upon labor to choose whether or not to "get on board."

It's time, now more than ever, to hold the real culprits accountable--UA's management--and not allow them to get off the hook as UAL777flyer and others seem so eager to allow them to do; the same crowd seems equally eager for labor to offer to pay the price for management's incompetence.

Seems from what I read, only the F/A's, including spacewaitress, get it:

It's your management stupid!

 

[UalPilot]

Mastermechanic,
Keep up the posts!!! there are some good one liners in there! EVERYONE needs to sit back and take a chill pill... give this new clown... sorry... CEO a chance... once he gets his act togethere we can figure out his master plan. The mechanics and pilots have the opportunity to turn this company around!!! All we need to do is keep our craniums out of the mud/crap and listen to the facts. The AFA is a totally different animal... they still don't get it! They are unskilled workers who expect more than they will ever deserve... Its hard to bargain when you don't have a real skill... the fact of the matter is that UAL can train the required "skill level" of any person off the street in a few weeks to meet the extremely difficult job tasks associated with being a F/A ... on the other hand... it takes years to have the credentials necessary to get the FAA ratings a Mechanic and Pilot needs to be hired and work/fly airplanes... Get a real job if you want better pay and benefits!!! Back to Lurking[:halo:] v [:devil:]

 

[UAL777flyer]

Tango Bravo,

I'm all for accountability. But maybe we all ought to first be accountable to ourselves. Based on your apparent negativity, you don't seem very willing to support this new CEO. Yeah, that attitude will sure go a long ways towards turning this dysfunctional company around. You can't expect everything to change overnight. It's one step at a time. We have a new leader. Let's hope that he proves to be the guy we need to fix this mess. But until proven otherwise, don't you think it's only fair that we all give him our support? It's going to take the work of EVERYONE to make his efforts successful, not just the majority.