Is it POSSIBLE........

[ThirdSeatHero]

The economy -is- good, and succesful companies are going to survive. Working together was a catch phrase at UA, but it's also a truth -- if you don't work together with your management, you will die. It's just a matter of when.

No, at UAL "Working together" was just a catch phrase.

As far as working with management goes the inverse is also equally true in working with unions.

When an airline fails theres plenty of room around the burning trash barrel for management too.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, I don't quite see how AA continuing to lose market share and revenue to lower cost providers is a one sided victory for management... It threatens their very reason for existance.

In -every- line of business, there is going to be a competitor who finds a way to win over your customers thru either service or lower price. More often than not, it's price that wins.

This has happened in retail (entirely non-union, by the way), auto manufacturing (heavily union), electronics, and manufacturing (moderately unionized), and airlines (moderately unionized when you consider that 25% of AA, 85% of DL, and most of the LCC's are non-union).

Well there are still Macys out there, and Mercedes. Porhses, Hiummers and other products that continue to sell despite the fact that they have to compete with Walmart, Hyundia etc. The fact is we have heard about how AA is losing market share and revenue for the last twenty years, funny thing is despite all those years of losing market share AA is bigger than ever!! Spread your BS somewhere else.

It's also not a new phenomena in the airlines... In the 1980's, you had People Express, Midway, Air Florida, Jet America, and a couple dozen other carriers all expecting to beat the legacies at their own game. Most failed, but two of those carriers still exist today --

Exactly, so there is more to this game than price. What we have created is a monster, LCC carrier with trunk capacity and comparitivly low debt, thats something that didnt exist before.

PE is largely intact as CO's EWR hub, and Jet America is what put Alaska Airlines firmly into southern California.

PE is dead, its just as dead as Air Cal or Trans Carib. When you ate that burger the cow did not continue to live inside you.

The "new" upstarts - Airtran, Jetblue, Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier - aren't as doe-eyed as their predecessors from 20 years ago. In fact, most of the strategy and planning folks at those carriers came from legacies and know their weaknesses better than you'd think.

Yea yea yea, so all those other guys were dummies but todays guys are so much smarter, ZZZZZZZZZZZ.

So... while you may have valid grievances about the TWU, complaining about them in the context of a grander plan to provide cheap air transport is about as worthwhile of an effort as it was to polish the deck rails on the Titanic as it was sinking further and further into the ocean...

Well I guess that applies to working harder for less as well.

It's a fact that AA is again one of the higher priced producers in the US airline industry. People like me are willing to pay a little more for quality. My company will pay more for it as well, however we, too, have a profit/loss to be concerned about, so if AA continues to be uncompetitive on cost, my business will head elsewhere, and AA will go the way of Pan Am and TWA.

Maybe it will, and hopefully SWA, which pays much better will fill in the gap. Wouldnt be the first time most of us have changed carriers. In fact I've even worked on the same exact aircraft for different carriers. Hope you like flying in a 737 to Shanghai.

It's also a fact that how AA stays competitive on a profit/loss basis is a matter of keeping income greater than expenses.

And spending billions on new terminals that have the same number of gates as the ones they replaced must really help keep costs down.

You can say the workers aren't responsible for the situation, but quite frankly, YOU are responsible for AA's long term health as much as Gerard Arpey is.

Wrong, I'm resposible for doing what I'm assigned to do, repair and service aircraft, thats it.

Until YOU and other employees start taking ownership of the situation (instead of holding onto decades old grudges against your union leaders and pointing middle fingers at anyone with a management pay grade), you're essentially f***ed.

Wrong again, who says you have to own a company in order to work for it? If a plumber comes to your house does he have to work for less so you can pay your electric bill? NO, he provides a service and gets his pay, he doesnt have an ownership stake in your house or your liabilities.

All this "ownership" BS is nothing but a corporate fad, a few years back the word was "synergies", ah yes Synergies were the way to go, every corporate strategy was built around it, then a few years later it was back to "core businesses". Now they are throwing out this bullshit about "ownership" , "you have to take ownership" of what you dont own. You have to be willing to sacrifice for what you dont own, but you should treat it as if you own it.

Just pay me a fair wage, if you close tomorrow somebody else will start flying the millions of people that want to go from one place to another.

 

[Bob Owens]

Uh, Arpey is taking his money from customers.

Wrong again, he is taking it from the shareholders.

Pro-management view? Try the view of someone who lives on a real profit/loss basis.

Everybody lives on a profit/loss basis, and thanks to the concessions most who work for AA are at a loss.

If you union guys spent just a tenth of the time you do circle jerking about corporate greed and how your union sold you out, AMR's troubles would be solved.

Cant you get anything right? We didnt cause AAs problems, management did. SWA pays their mechanics much more than AA does and they can make money, so the problem with AA is they dont know how to treat their employees and get maximum productivity out of them.

Instead of worrying about having a viable employer, you'd rather wind up like those guys I saw on the Eastern picket lines: they had their pride and sent the company a message, but it didn't stop them from having to hover over a burning trash barrel to keep warm as everyone else drove by them on the way to work.

Wrong again, by killing off EAL it provided other carriers room to grow. Those EAL employees were then hired at those cariers, sure they got screwed out of their seniority but if they had agreed to work for Lorenzo they would have made less money over the long haul.Its no different than when Milk producers poured the milk down the drain before agreeing to sell it too cheaply. Sometimes you have to make a stand and you make out better over the long run. When you look at it, if SWA, the premier LCC, is the biggest threat then the sooner they kill off AA the better off most of AAs employees will be. Why would you want to keep that job at SWA from forming if it requires you to earn less?

Call it koolaid if it makes you feel better, but if you're not worried about having a job five or ten years from now, you should be. There is no such thing as job security if you aren't making money as a company. Start remembering that once in a while, instead of wrapping yourself in the false security of a union contract.

According to Boston Consulting we could work for free and AA still wouldnt be profitable-AA hired them not me, so whats the point? Unless you are working for the government, working for less does not provide you with more security, it provides you with less security.

The economy -is- good, and succesful companies are going to survive. Working together was a catch phrase at UA, but it's also a truth -- if you don't work together with your management, you will die. It's just a matter of when.

We will die? Come on now, even if AA and every other carrier dissapeared we wouldnt die. Over at NWA the mechanics didnt die, in fact when the court ruled on the UC issue it was pretty much moot because most of the mechanics had already found re-employment, and over 70% opted to not be placed on the recall list either.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Former ModerAAtor,

You said, and I quote you;

QUOTE

"Call it Kool aid if it makes you feel better, but if you're not worried about having a job 5-10 years from now, you should be."

"There is no such thing as job security, if your not making money as a company."

"Start remembering that once in a while, instead of wrapping yourself in the false security of a Union contract"

FM,

With the LONE exception of a buyout/hostile takeover/Merger of AA by BA(which then could become complicated)...Your reply's to Bob Owens "DON'T HOLD WATER"

Here's why.

Since AA was able to survive 9/11...#587, and BK..........AA WILL be around 5-10 years from now !!!!!!!!

With about $6 BILLION in the bank, AA IS making money, and there is such a thing as JOB SECURITY !!!

With stations such as BOS/LGA/JFK/MIA/SJU/ORD/DFW/AFW/TUL/LAX and SFO, 15+ years of seniority AMT's(LIKE BOB OWENS) will ALWAYS be able to "wrap themselves" in a UNION security blanket.(Even if the worthless (company) union is the twu) !!!!!

WHY,

Because AA, since their (smart) move to DFW/TUL, from NY, has a "sweet deal" with the vast majority of AMT workers there.
That "sweet deal" will allow line AMT's(in the line stations that I mentioned) to Always have "security blanket jobs.

OH,

Even YOU/AA and their union, COULD'NT pull AMT's out of the lines stations I've mentioned...WITHOUT caising a STRIKE/SHUTDOWN.

In summary;

Bob Owens,
ALWAYS keep resisting Injustice/Corperate GREED, and enjoy your SECURE SECURITY Blanket Job !!


NH/BB's

 

[Hackman]

Let's not confuse the airline economy with the economy as a whole. The economy is doing just fine.

Why do always bring up the "rich and greedy" complaint? Why do you even care what options Arpey gets, he's not getting it from you, he's taking from the shareholders. He's certainly not buying a boat with his bonus.

Why don't you address the issue at hand, airline unions? That is your biggest problem, is you try to ignore the real issues unions face, instead you focus on how many yachts are being bought.

I bring up the "rich and greedy" because it's a very hot topic. No man is worth $295 million (Barry Diller) a year. Executive pay is out of control!!! Here is a link to prove my point; GREED.....
http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2005/0509/138.html

How are airline unions to blame for all the trouble air carriers are in??? If that's the case, then Southwest's unions are to be congratulated alone on the decades of success the airline has enjoyed. Right??? We both know the mostly excellent employee relations with management are the real cause. Along with superb business decisions they continue to exhibit.

I will no longer care about upper manAAgements compensation when they stop making moronic mistakes (like buying TWA) and then asking the employees of AA to pay for them. Got it??? Good.

 

[eolesen]

It's obvious that you'd all rather convince yourselves there's nothing wrong in the airline industry as far as your corner of the world is concerned.

Personally, I think you're going to be sadly mistaken if you have to re-enter the job market, especially as an AMT.

It's pretty sad when you'd readily accept working for a competitor who offers the very working conditions you're so dead set against accepting at AA. But that seems to be the prevailing work ethic in a union shop.

Wrong again, he is taking it from the shareholders.

No, Bob. Shareholders at AMR haven't received a dividend in over 20 years. The only way shareholders have benefitted is by selling their shares.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

It's obvious that you'd all rather convince yourselves there's nothing wrong in the airline industry as far as your corner of the world is concerned.

Personally, I think you're going to be sadly mistaken if you have to re-enter the job market, especially as an AMT.

It's pretty sad when you'd readily accept working for a competitor who offers the very working conditions you're so dead set against accepting at AA. But that seems to be the prevailing work ethic in a union shop.
No, Bob. Shareholders at AMR haven't received a dividend in over 20 years. The only way shareholders have benefitted is by selling their shares.

FM what dont you get.
This excuse for a company pays me to repair airplanes.
That is all.I go to work everyday and do what they pay me to do.
Over the past 15 years we have been doing it for less and less. Enough is enough.
We are not cuasing the airlines financial problems. This has been done by poor management and their disasterous decision making.
So take off your management glasses and look at it for what it is.
AMR expects its employees to pay for their screw ups over the last 15 years. The only problem is we are tired of paying. If that means AA is to go the way of EAL, PAA,TWA then so be it.
There will all ways be airplanes to fix. The only thing that changes is the color on that tail.Do you really think if AA goes under I cant get work else where. I think you are mistaken. AA is my 4th stop in this industry so I really could care less if AA shuts its doors tmorrow. There is all ways work if you are willing to work.
Maybe the next stop will be UPS or SWA

 

[Oneflyer]

This excuse for a company pays me to repair airplanes.
That is all.I go to work everyday and do what they pay me to do.

That isn't really true. Yes, you are paid to fix planes, but your union has made that more expenive that it needs to be, thus the company reacts by cutting your pay or laying workers off.

I would argue that if you threw out 99% of the union rule book, AA could raise the hourly wage to over and above pre-consession levels.

 

[Oneflyer]

How are airline unions to blame for all the trouble air carriers are in??? If that's the case, then Southwest's unions are to be congratulated alone on the decades of success the airline has enjoyed. Right??? We both know the mostly excellent employee relations with management are the real cause. Along with superb business decisions they continue to exhibit.

I would completely agree that Southwest's unions are a huge part of the airline's success in the past and will largely determine the success of the airline in the future.

That being said, we're talking about AA's unions and even with the current Southwest pay rates, AA's unions would not change contracts with them if given the chance to vote on it. They get paid more because they are more productive, period.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Former ModerAAtor.....Oneflyer.


AA Is'nt going to go "UNDER" !!
AA will NEVER "go UNDER" !!

AA would rather "Give Up" their First born CHILDREN, than get rid of their WORTHLESS COMPANY UNION !!!!!

Therefore AA will ALWAYS be UNIONIZED !

Sure, the (worthless) TWU could work with AA to get more concessions, but, Except for the (getting slimmer) Majority of AMT's in Texas, and ESPECIALLY Oklahoma, the line AMT's will just "WORK SAFER" (do you "catch my drift")

OH,

And if AA was to "try" to pull Unionized AMT's out of places like BOS/JFK/LGA/EWR/MIA/SJU....and (hopefully) ORD/LAX/SFO, you would have the ...MOTHER OF ALL...."STRIKES/SHUTDOWNS" !!!

Do NOT confuse the actions of the "SACKLESS" IAM/AFA/ALPA in DTW/MSP, to the INTESTINAL FORTITUDE of the "EAST COAST BOYS and GIRLS" of APA/APFA, and yes, believe it or not, the TWU.

NOW which one of you "BRIGHT BOYS" wants to be the FIRST to debate what I just said ??
(And "ONLY" what I said) ???


NH/BB's

 

[Bill]

I would completely agree that Southwest's unions are a huge part of the airline's success in the past and will largely determine the success of the airline in the future. That being said, we're talking about AA's unions and even with the current Southwest pay rates, AA's unions would not change contracts with them if given the chance to vote on it. They get paid more because they are more productive, period.

Isn't the TWU a union at SWA???????? HMMMMM???? Giving credit where credit is due???? Interesting..........

 

[Oneflyer]

Former ModerAAtor.....Oneflyer.
AA Is'nt going to go "UNDER" !!
AA will NEVER "go UNDER" !!

AA would rather "Give Up" their First born CHILDREN, than get rid of their WORTHLESS COMPANY UNION !!!!!

Therefore AA will ALWAYS be UNIONIZED !

Sure, the (worthless) TWU could work with AA to get more concessions, but, Except for the (getting slimmer) Majority of AMT's in Texas, and ESPECIALLY Oklahoma, the line AMT's will just "WORK SAFER" (do you "catch my drift")

OH,

And if AA was to "try" to pull Unionized AMT's out of places like BOS/JFK/LGA/EWR/MIA/SJU....and (hopefully) ORD/LAX/SFO, you would have the ...MOTHER OF ALL...."STRIKES/SHUTDOWNS" !!!

Do NOT confuse the actions of the "SACKLESS" Amfa in DTW/MSP, to the INTESTINAL FORTITUDE of the "EAST COAST BOYS".

NOW which one of you "BRIGHT BOYS" wants to be the FIRST to debate what I just said ??
(And "ONLY" what I said) ???
NH/BB's

You just proved my point. Thanks.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

You just proved my point. Thanks.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

And your "SPECIFIC" point is........???


NH/BB's

 

[Oneflyer]

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

And your "SPECIFIC" point is........???
NH/BB's

Perhaps you could figure that out by reading my posts...

I'll give you the quick version. The AA's unions increase labor costs to the company, while actually lowering the pay rates of the union worker, by adding a huge amount of "work rules" that create an ineffecient workplace.

Point 2

If given the opportunity to change to a Southwest Airlines like workforce/workplace AA union workers would chose against it.

 

[formeraa]

Perhaps you could figure that out by reading my posts...

I'll give you the quick version. The AA's unions increase labor costs to the company, while actually lowering the pay rates of the union worker, by adding a huge amount of "work rules" that create an ineffecient workplace.

Point 2

If given the opportunity to change to a Southwest Airlines like workforce/workplace AA union workers would chose against it.

Exactly correct. I remember about 10 - 12 years ago when AA approached their pilots union with an industry leading contract, if the pilots would give up the crazy "hourly pay" scheme (with gobs of "overtime" pay) and commit to working a 14 day consecutive period each month. That was a ground breaking thought by management which was rejected by the union labor.

Hopefully, the pilots understand that it takes hundreds of "management" employees to support their convoluted pay scheme. With a simpler contract, dozens of management positions could be eliminated.