Is anyone else troubled by the new nonrefundable policies?

[KCFlyer]

I don't travel nearly as often as I used to, but when I did, the tickets were almost always nonrefundable. And on more occasions than I care to remember, plans DID change in the middle of the trip, and we most often times didn't have the luxury of calling the airline in advance and telling them about the change. Because we were working with CUSTOMERS. So, we'd show up at the airport and pay whatever we had to to get home, but the value of our return ticket was always applied to the return fare. Now when that happens, you are telling the customer that they have to buy a full fare one way ticket and they get zippo from the ticket that they had. I really don't understand why all the other airlines jumped on this bandwagon, but I do believe that they will come to regret it. JMHO.

 

[CPRich]

Explain to me the exact mechanics of how US loses money if I don't shop up. If the flight is not sold out, there was no opportuntity to reuse the seat. And if I can call up to the minute before the flight leaves, then you didn't have the opportuntity to play revenue maximization games, reprice seats, gain a customer that was scared away due to lack of availability, etc.

If the flight it sold out, and people are on standby, I can't beleive a seat actually would go empty. That's what stand-by and the 30-minute check in is for, n'est-ce pas? I don't show up, they cancel my seat, give it to someone else, flight takes off full.

Please give me a realistic scenario where my no-show causes an opportuntity cost loss due to empty seats. And remember, you give me up until the minute before the flight leaves to escape with frame it status.

And what is the justification for needing to re-book a flight right away? Suppose I do call in advance and give you the courtesy of being able to give 1 more person a boarding pass at check in vs. waiting for stand-by to clear. Why do I need to give the specific date that I will be reusing it? When I rebook, there needs to be space available in my fare class, etc., so why not give me a day, a week, a month to rebook it? (other the the extra $100). I foresee lots of flights 330 days out being booked and then disappearing later. What havoc will that throw in the reservations process??

 

[mrman]

Meanwhile across the concourse, your biggest competitor WN is telling their customers “take these unused funds, apply your ticket on the internet, we will give you double credit on a discount fare, and won’t charge you over $299.

 

[geo1004]

CP Rich hits the nail on the head:

Anyone who fails to check-in for a particular flight forfiets the seat many, many, many minutes before that last minute big fare passenger is going to be told sorry, no seats available. The myth that the airline will not be able to sell the seat held by the cheap fare passenger is false. We ALL know that a 737 headed from CLT to RDU may show ZERO seats available two hours before flight time but if big $$$ Y or F fare guy comes along, US will take his money as if the plane is wide friggin' open and let the gate agents deal with the oversold situation (at the cost of a Z class free r/t that costs the airline NOTHING because those are capacity controlled).

And the biggest piece of mis-information out there is that all a passenger needs to do is call and let the airline know they won't be flying on a particular flight and everything will be OK'ey Dokey! Nope, you better know EXACTLY when and where you want to go when you call or you will see AT LEAST two change fees for $100 a pop... not to mention any fare increase (which will almost always be the case).

Southwest has decided to make the rules simple and easy to understand. That makes them easy to enforce and there is little room for argument on either side. US and the other majors have decided to make the rules very complex and yet they wish to reserve the right to interpret the rules for us as we go along. Unfortunately, only 95% of the passengers are going to follow blindly. The other 5% will challenge the arcane system and find inconsistencies to favor themselves the same way the system favors the airlines the other 95% of the time.

 

[bankernclt]

The only way that I agree with this new policy of use it or lose it is if a passenger fails to contact the airline in advance. This way the airline does have the opportunity to re-sale the seat.

I purchased two tickets from CLT to south Florida last March. The trip ended up being canceled. The cost of the tickets were $320 r/t per ticket. I have yet to reschedule this trip. I am not thrilled about paying $100 per ticke to have them reissued; however, it is better then losing them.

I was so looking forward to US and UA codesharing and giving these two carriers my business as I have always received the best service from these two carriers while on the ground and in the air. However, I don't think I can bring myself to purchase a ticket with US due to this new policy they have created. I realize that other carriers have followed; however, it was US who first said, in so many words, I don't want your business unless you are on a full fare ticket. Therefore, I can see myself purchasing all tickets from CLT on DAL. It is just a short trip down to ATL.

One more thing... It would also be some what different if US was offering tickets at SWA prices. I keep hearing that they are lowering their cost to compete with SWA, but I doubt that you will ever see any reasonable fares out of CLT. To fly from CLT to the coast of NC for a beach weekend is over $340 r/t. You can usually purchase a ticket to Florida or LAX for that amount. I hear more and more business travelers state that they are required to take DAL or NW on business trips due to cheaper fares, and I hear more and more leisure travelers say they drive to GSO or RDU to fly out when the live in CLT (I have heard of some business travelers in the area that are required to drive to GSO and RDU too). I just don't understand why US doesn't want the people of CLT's business.

Good luck US!

 

[Oliver Twist]

[blockquote]
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On 9/10/2002 3:27:25 AM usresman wrote:

[blockquote]


Res Troll I will remember that, its a good one. I think that covers all the groups, Sky Waitress, Glorified Bus Driver, Ramp Rat, Grease Monkey, and last but not least Res Troll.
You are a funny character; I want you for my shop steward, a great leader...... [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif'] [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
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[/blockquote]

You forgot one group, the ATO agents of which I am one. I suppose we need a name also- I have not had such a good feeling in a long time as when I read those words above. Goodness if we can't laugh at ourselves, we got big problems.

I really do look forward to what names ATO agents can be called- but I must tell you res troll just cracks me up big time. I love it. I know the names are given in good humor- let's keep it that way- we need to smile more often in here.

 

[TomBascom]

[blockquote]
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On 9/10/2002 9:32:36 PM bankernclt wrote:

The only way that I agree with this new policy of "use it or lose it" is if a passenger fails to contact the airline in advance.[/blockquote]

You really need to re-examine that. That particular POV is one of the biggest bits of baloney in the whole package. It sounds reasonable on the face of it but that's just sugar coating on a poison pill. There are at least as many good reasons why a passenger may not be able to comply with that rule as there are reasons why the airline doesn't notify you of flight delays and cancelations. They want people to just gloss over these things and think that'll never be a problem for me without really looking at what it would mean if it were a problem and how many ways it might become a problem.

[blockquote]This way the airline does have the opportunity to re-sale the seat.[/blockquote]

Ditto. Except that this is the biggest bit of baloney in the whole package.

 

[CPRich]

[blockquote]
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On 9/10/2002 8:05:36 PM CPRich wrote:

Explain to me the exact mechanics of how US loses money if I don't shop up. If the flight is not sold out, there was no opportuntity to reuse the seat. And if I can call up to the minute before the flight leaves, then you didn't have the opportuntity to play revenue maximization games, reprice seats, gain a customer that was scared away due to lack of availability, etc.


If the flight it sold out, and people are on standby, I can't beleive a seat actually would go empty. That's what stand-by and the 30-minute check in is for, n'est-ce pas? I don't show up, they cancel my seat, give it to someone else, flight takes off full.


Please give me a realistic scenario where my no-show causes an opportuntity cost loss due to empty seats. And remember, you give me up until the minute before the flight leaves to escape with "frame it" status.


And what is the justification for needing to re-book a flight right away? Suppose I do call in advance and give you the courtesy of being able to give 1 more person a boarding pass at check in vs. waiting for stand-by to clear. Why do I need to give the specific date that I will be reusing it? When I rebook, there needs to be space available in my fare class, etc., so why not give me a day, a week, a month to rebook it? (other the the extra $100). I foresee lots of flights 330 days out being booked and then disappearing later. What havoc will that throw in the reservations process??
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[/blockquote]


Come on folks, can no one answer this? Hmmm??

There actually is an answer where it is theoretically possible (which I have a further reply to). Surely the professionals know more then we mere 200k mi/yr fliers.

In absence of a rebuttal, I can only assume that my assumption is correct - these policies do not correct any flaw that would cost the airline money and merely allows them to resell to someone else something I have already paid for, while keeping my money even though I didn't use it.

 

[RealityCheck]

[P]hmm I'll take stab at it.. [/P]
[P]Example -say the flight you have 298 rt ticket on is sold out outbnd, has been for days.You and 4 others no show for the flight, the other 4 paid anywhere from 258 to 458 r/t depending when they booked it.It is entirely possible 5 random people attempted to book that flight within a week when eligible fares were 358-558 r/t for these 5 no show seats,,or lets go further..a rich business person or two who might have paid a b8us for 758 r/t for one of those sold out seats...these 5 people either booked alternate dates or booked alternate airlines , thus losing the ability to fill those 5 empty seats..on that particular flight. US has your money, but you get to spend most of it again on another day, minus 100, for another flight in the future.Since there is no way to predict whether these seats could have been sold elsewhere but the likelihood still exists,same goes with the return flt, the corporation errs on the side of caution and says the 5 of you cost us hundreds or maybe a few thousand dollars on that flight and return in lost potential revenue.I cant go into the logic of losing it entirely,as a no show no call, except for the fact that the 298 you paid will be further offseat profitwise by the fact you not only lost the company potential revenue on that flight but you are tying up a potential discount seat on another flight in the future that might have an attraction for higher business fares.Mutiply this scenario 1000 times a day around the system 7 days a week and thats a lot of money.[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P]Does anyone follow this logic? Or flawed? No offense.I don't have my business degree diploma framed yet.[/P][img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']

 

[KCFlyer]

Is anyone troubled by them...apparently the business community is. Read [A href=http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/020913/airlines_fares_rules_1.html]this article[/A]

 

[TomBascom]

[blockquote]----------------
On 9/12/2002 11:34:15 PM RealityCheck wrote:
Since there is no way to predict whether these seats could have been sold elsewhere but the likelihood still exists,same goes with the return flt, the corporation errs on the side of caution...
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There is a way to predict it -- that's how and why they oversell flights. What is lacking is a way to know with certainty and precision (in advance). The cost of taking the risk that more people show up than you have seats for is much less than the virtual certainty that some people will not show up (in spite of the most people travel as planned mantra they know darned well that quite a few people don't.)

 

[chelebell]

Us just came out with another type of nonrefundable fare.
And this one can be used at a later date without making changes prior to original flt time/date. However, I haven't seen it yet in any of the markets....and I haven't had the chance to review all of the markets, either.
This may be another option for passengers. Ask about it.
But remember this...everything is subject to change.

With regards to the change it/or lose it policy....you may cancel *anytime* - and you may call back later to make changes as long as it is prior to the flight time and date of travel on the original ticket.

 

[TomBascom]

[blockquote]N305AS said:
... the concept that the customer has paid for that ONE seat on that ONE flight on that ONE day. That's it. If they call to exchange their ticket for a new one PRIOR to their flight's departure...[/blockquote]

Assuming that I went along with this (I don't, but just for the sake of argument...)

How does this justify the airline wiping out the rest of the itinerary and pocketing my money? They've now canceled me and have my seat available for sale (not that anything was ever stopping them from overselling it in the first place.) The hordes of people wanting that seat can now buy it...

If we accept the analogy that it's like a reservation for a hotel room as some pundits are now floating (much closer than a concert ticket but still off the mark) then why would anything more than the initial missed segment be at risk? If I reserve a week in a hotel and no-show then I only get hit for the first night -- not the whole week. (And if I call them after 6pm and explain that I was stuck in a US Airways plane on a runway in PHL and wasn't allowed to use my cell phone to cancel they'll cheerfully allow an exception to their rule.)

 

[TomBascom]

Good scenario. It's the one that I've conceded (and I suspect that this is CPRich's as well -- but he can weigh in on that).

There are a couple of additional things that need to be taken into consideration:

1) How many flights are ever in the state of being so oversold that peope wanting to book them are turned away?

2) Of those who were turned away from a particular flight how many were lost entirely vs how many found a US Airways alternative?

3) Of those oversold flights where people were stopped from even trying to buy tickets how many depart with empty seats because of no-shows?

If the answer to #1 is anything but a piddling number then
U is clearly dealing with an under-capacity problem on the routes in question. My personal random checks of availability suggest that it is a piddling number outside of certain very popular routes and predictable patterns -- and in any case that it is only the discount V, Q, K, M & H fares that you cannot buy. There are always still plenty of B, Y & F fares for the hypothetical last minute high roller to buy.

#2 is likely unanswerable. But if anyone thinks that it's a significant number isn't the correct response to add capacity and fly those passengers?

I have no hard data on the number of initially oversold flights that leave with an empty seat. But judging from the flights that I've been on which were in an oversold state it's a number which is very close to zero. Of those flights I also have no idea how many were closed to sales -- but since I scored upgrades out of G and had to wait at the gate for them (and watch the gate agents call up a list of others in the same boat) I'm quite certain that there is virtually always inventory available for high rollers right up to the last minute.

The last question is answerable. If the answer is anything more than a couple of dozen seats a day then someone in the Crystal Palace should be... Oh never mind...

But even if they're twice as incompetent as their worst critics say they are there simply cannot be an appreciable number of seats departing that could have had a paying passenger in them who was turned away. This is even more true if you buy into the (IMHO incorrect) idea that discount tickets are unprofitable and that only B, Y & F tickets are good for the airline.

[blockquote]
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On 9/12/2002 11:34:15 PM RealityCheck wrote:

hmm I'll take stab at it.. [/P]

Example -say the flight you have 298 rt ticket on is sold out outbnd, has been for days.You and 4 others no show for the flight, the other 4 paid anywhere from 258 to 458 r/t depending when they booked it.It is entirely possible 5 random people attempted to book that flight within a week when eligible fares were 358-558 r/t for these 5 no show seats,,or lets go further..a rich business person or two who might have paid a b8us for 758 r/t for one of those sold out seats...these 5 people either booked alternate dates or booked alternate airlines , thus losing the ability to fill those 5 empty seats..on that particular flight. US has your money, but you get to spend most of it again on another day, minus 100, for another flight in the future.Since there is no way to predict whether these seats could have been sold elsewhere but the likelihood still exists,same goes with the return flt, the corporation errs on the side of caution and says the 5 of you cost us hundreds or maybe a few thousand dollars on that flight and return in lost potential revenue.I cant go into the logic of losing it entirely,as a no show no call, except for the fact that the 298 you paid will be further offseat profitwise by the fact you not only lost the company potential revenue on that flight but you are tying up a potential discount seat on another flight in the future that might have an attraction for higher business fares.Mutiply this scenario 1000 times a day around the system 7 days a week and thats a lot of money.[/P]


[/P]


Does anyone follow this logic? Or flawed? No offense.I don't have my business degree diploma framed yet.[/P][img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
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