In Phl, Southwest
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PITbull
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- Dec 29, 2002
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Tom,
Whoa, this is the first time I have agreed with you 100%! U managment needs to do what you suggest ASAP, without even trying to present any business plan to labor at this point. That presentation can be done at a later time.
But, they won't. Even though they know they should do exactly what you suggest, they want the "picture" to look bleak and desperate in order to maintain the "hammer" on labor and convince us all to open up our contracts again FIRST for permanent changes.
This is just "par" the way this mangement thinks and operates. And that is why we are circling the drain.
Whoa, this is the first time I have agreed with you 100%! U managment needs to do what you suggest ASAP, without even trying to present any business plan to labor at this point. That presentation can be done at a later time.
But, they won't. Even though they know they should do exactly what you suggest, they want the "picture" to look bleak and desperate in order to maintain the "hammer" on labor and convince us all to open up our contracts again FIRST for permanent changes.
This is just "par" the way this mangement thinks and operates. And that is why we are circling the drain.
PoorPropDriver
Member
- Jan 17, 2003
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- 0
PSA uses 17/35 and 8/26 as much as is operationally possible. Frequently, however ATC is the problem. If the wind is out of the north we have to use 27L for any southbound departures. Also, we frequently have to take 27L for MXE departures.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
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- #20
A perspective on using PHL runway 17/35....
A few months back, the winds at PHL were blowing from the south with gusts up to 35-40 knots. This exceeded the crosswind limitation for using the E-W runways. Many aircraft were able to use 17/35, but not those on longer segments - and this was with a strong headwind on that runway. With "normal" winds, 17/35 is marginal for shorter flights with low fuel loads, but can be used some.
That said, I don't have any idea if the winglets on some of SW airplanes will make 17/35 more feasible for them.
Jim
Oh, I'm talking about mainline type aircraft - not express.
A few months back, the winds at PHL were blowing from the south with gusts up to 35-40 knots. This exceeded the crosswind limitation for using the E-W runways. Many aircraft were able to use 17/35, but not those on longer segments - and this was with a strong headwind on that runway. With "normal" winds, 17/35 is marginal for shorter flights with low fuel loads, but can be used some.
That said, I don't have any idea if the winglets on some of SW airplanes will make 17/35 more feasible for them.
Jim
Oh, I'm talking about mainline type aircraft - not express.
I'll have to mark my calendar!PITbull said:
The picture is bleak -- it's probably even worse than they're portraying it. But you're absolutely right (see, you can mark your caledar too!) that there's no hope if all they're going to do is the same old same old and hammer labor over and over again. Labor is going to have to accept that the way things get done needs to change -- but IMHO that shouldn't be at the expense of w2 reductions. It should happen as a result as using the people that they have much more effectively. To do that management has a lot of responsibility but labor has a unique chance to make a proactive and positive contribution too -- you guys see a lot that could be improved. You need to speak up (again and again! if need be) and get the message across. And management has to listen and communicate or this isn't going to succeed.
T
Traveler
Guest
Agreed... There’s allot of things that can be done now. The “Plan†should be an evolving, morphing entity – Growing, Expanding and Adapting as current and anticipated pressures presents itself. There are measures the company can take now saving hundreds of thousands of dollars in operational changes.PITbull said:
Try working like the Borg – assimilate, evolve and adapt the business model in a ongoing, flowing basis.
No... Management’s style is characteristic of fits of stops and starts.
It’s the bottom of the 4th inning.
The competition is cranking them out of the Park.
The coaches have played this team before... and lost every game. Historically, the opponents have been throwing fast balls, breaking balls, change ups... every pitch known to baseball and a few new ones. Despite this, the coaches have been getting the team ready -- using the same tired strategy -- only preparing their batting line up for the fast ball down the middle. Swing away, no strategy – just hit it hard. Further, the coaches have been sending in signals to the pitcher – Fast ball down the middle... they’ll never hit it.
Yes... It’s the bottom of the 4th inning and they’re cranking them out of the Park. The coach is dumfounded. Who could have predicted it. These crazy variety of pitches they’re throwing... how could the coaches anticipate that the opponents would stick to their consistent, winning strategy. These pick off plays... why don’t they just play our stand-up, sand-lot kind of ball. What’s with their base running... bunts, sacrifice fly’s, stealing and all that.
The coaches look at their bench. Hey you, Pitcher over there. Are you throwing hard enough. I said I want fast ball down the middle. Throw harder, damn-it. You batters. Do like the game plan calls for – swing away, hit harder. And your base running... I want you to lose weight now and get stronger and faster... Now!
(one player rises) Uh coach why don’t we try just a few things we could do differently now... why don’t we exploit a few of the strengths we have. The Pitcher over there has a few pitches other than that fast ball down the middle. And we can quickly improve our base running if only we’d try playing with a few strategy changes.
(another player) Yes... They have bats, we have bats. They have balls, we have balls. They have gloves, we have gloves. Their players are paid as much as we are. We’re all playing on the same field. Why don’t you coaches come out of the dugout and give us the strategic calls and signals now, as the game unfolds, as the challenges present themselves, as opportunity presents itself – In an unfolding and progressive manner, keeping pace with the changing nature of the game. Why aren’t we doing what we can now, with what we have, coach? If you think we’re too fat and too slow, we’ll work on conditioning, certainly... But for now don’t you thing we should just try to play a little smarter? Play with a little unfolding strategy?
(coach) No. Not yet. We’re considering new winning strategies, yes, but we’re not going to implement these strategies until the 9th inning. We’re waiting to introduce all our strategies – all at one time. Now, just get out there and throw fast balls down the middle, swing away and don’t run the bases until we tell you to. AND STOP LOSING THE GAME FOR ME – THROW HARDER – RUN FASTER. DON’T YOU SEE THE FANS ARE LEAVING! IF I DON’T SEE IMPROVEMENT BY THE 7th ENNING STRETCH, I’LL FORFEIT THE GAME. I’M NOT BLUFFING... I’LL FORFEIT!
MarkMyWords
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- Aug 20, 2002
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I agre with Tom and PitBull.....
We can all sit here and say that WN is going to have the same problems in PHL as we do and that will make them leave, but I agree, they will adapt to the operating environment in PHL and tweek the schedule when and where necessary. If the revenue is there, they will find a way to make it work. We can't sit back and hope that they fail in PHL, now is the time to get our house in order. This constant barage of threats and FUD from Dave and Co. isnt' a plan. There are so many things that they could be doing, that aren't restricted by any contract, but they aren't. ROLL THE FREAKIN PHL HUB ALREADY! I know i have beat this like a dead horse, but it has the potential for huge cost savings and efficiencies in the operation. There is nothing in any contract that would stop them from doing this.
Also, with the talk of runways 17/35. Aren't most of WN's flights to long to utilize these runways? I don't see them trying to use 17/35 to launch flights to PHX, LAS, MCO, TPA or even MDW. I could be wrong, but I think they will be to heavy for such a short runway.
To CCY: GET ON WITH THE FRICKEN PLAN ALREADY.....if there is one....TIME IS WASTING! :angry:
We can all sit here and say that WN is going to have the same problems in PHL as we do and that will make them leave, but I agree, they will adapt to the operating environment in PHL and tweek the schedule when and where necessary. If the revenue is there, they will find a way to make it work. We can't sit back and hope that they fail in PHL, now is the time to get our house in order. This constant barage of threats and FUD from Dave and Co. isnt' a plan. There are so many things that they could be doing, that aren't restricted by any contract, but they aren't. ROLL THE FREAKIN PHL HUB ALREADY! I know i have beat this like a dead horse, but it has the potential for huge cost savings and efficiencies in the operation. There is nothing in any contract that would stop them from doing this.
Also, with the talk of runways 17/35. Aren't most of WN's flights to long to utilize these runways? I don't see them trying to use 17/35 to launch flights to PHX, LAS, MCO, TPA or even MDW. I could be wrong, but I think they will be to heavy for such a short runway.
To CCY: GET ON WITH THE FRICKEN PLAN ALREADY.....if there is one....TIME IS WASTING! :angry:
hammerhead
Member
- Jan 26, 2004
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that's almost the only runway they (w/o's) use. ???Ramp Rat said:
Southwest knows exactly what it is getting into in Philly. They are going after this hub just like they went after BWI.
The plan needs to be made public if there is one at all. But let's not kid ourselves Dave ain't going to beat Herb at Philly, no way. I'm not saying he should abandon Philly but he needs to figure out how to cope with southwest expanding there.
Folks need to be realistic about this situation, Dave does not stand a shot in hell in forcing Herb out of Philly. The goal should be to focus on other avenues to generate additional revenue, such as point to point service and rolling the hubs, utilize Pitt more as a connecting hub where you have much better operational efficiencies.
Hell, you gotta come up with something cause Dave is at best at the top of the 8th inning. And stop coming up with the nonsense of Herb not knowing what he is getting into when he enters Philly. Herb's company has a market capitilization of almost 12 billion while Dave's company has a market capitilization of just over 100 million. I think Herb not only knows what he is doing but also has the resources to execute his strategy.
The plan needs to be made public if there is one at all. But let's not kid ourselves Dave ain't going to beat Herb at Philly, no way. I'm not saying he should abandon Philly but he needs to figure out how to cope with southwest expanding there.
Folks need to be realistic about this situation, Dave does not stand a shot in hell in forcing Herb out of Philly. The goal should be to focus on other avenues to generate additional revenue, such as point to point service and rolling the hubs, utilize Pitt more as a connecting hub where you have much better operational efficiencies.
Hell, you gotta come up with something cause Dave is at best at the top of the 8th inning. And stop coming up with the nonsense of Herb not knowing what he is getting into when he enters Philly. Herb's company has a market capitilization of almost 12 billion while Dave's company has a market capitilization of just over 100 million. I think Herb not only knows what he is doing but also has the resources to execute his strategy.
You can't compare BWI to PHL. U's survival never depended on BWI and with D.C. and PHL so close it was very easy for U to just cut and run.
I agree that U better have a good plan, but I'm also sticking to my point that SWA will not be able to avoid ATC delays just like everyone else.
Another factor that will affect SWA in PHL is the attitude of the labor pool. It hasn't been a pretty picture the past decade and SWA will be drawing from the same lot of losers that we have been for years.
I agree that U better have a good plan, but I'm also sticking to my point that SWA will not be able to avoid ATC delays just like everyone else.
Another factor that will affect SWA in PHL is the attitude of the labor pool. It hasn't been a pretty picture the past decade and SWA will be drawing from the same lot of losers that we have been for years.
autofixer
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- Aug 20, 2002
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SWA will interview and select the right staff at PHL. They know what they are doing and I would bet, they know what UAIR will do, even before Dave does. 17/35 will be used for landings and departure times will reflect non-UAIR bank times. Watch and be amazed. See how a MANAGED airline does it. How do they do it at LAX, or STL, or MCO?
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
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Tom,
This is not the bottom of the 4th or the top of the ninth, AND it is NOT a game.
By giving Concession #3 AGAIN, will create some groups to work more for the same wage but actually result in a pay cut, as many of our particular group and other groups have had to rely on a second income to subsidize their losses from concession #1 and #2. In addition, and most important in my opinion, is while one group does more, it will have to be at the expense of costing others their jobs in other groups. Is that more efficient? Why, yes in the corporate business arena, however, the greater question is...is job elimination good for America? Unemploying more will make for a more efficeint leaner company and yeild profits only for the elite senior managment ranks in the form of bonuses for their "personal performance reviews" that according to this management's present contracts, they are entitled to bonus starting 2004.
Bronner needs to come out of his isolated "shell". He has invested in a very precarious, and volatile industry..."stupid him". But, he now needs to have the foresight and realize that ALL the labor groups by concensus, DO NOT TRUST OR WANT TO GIVE THIS MANGEMNT ANYTHING. Unfortunately for him, that IS the reality. If he truly cares about his investment, he needs to do some serious thinking. Otherwise, we will ALL lose.
This is not the bottom of the 4th or the top of the ninth, AND it is NOT a game.
By giving Concession #3 AGAIN, will create some groups to work more for the same wage but actually result in a pay cut, as many of our particular group and other groups have had to rely on a second income to subsidize their losses from concession #1 and #2. In addition, and most important in my opinion, is while one group does more, it will have to be at the expense of costing others their jobs in other groups. Is that more efficient? Why, yes in the corporate business arena, however, the greater question is...is job elimination good for America? Unemploying more will make for a more efficeint leaner company and yeild profits only for the elite senior managment ranks in the form of bonuses for their "personal performance reviews" that according to this management's present contracts, they are entitled to bonus starting 2004.
Bronner needs to come out of his isolated "shell". He has invested in a very precarious, and volatile industry..."stupid him". But, he now needs to have the foresight and realize that ALL the labor groups by concensus, DO NOT TRUST OR WANT TO GIVE THIS MANGEMNT ANYTHING. Unfortunately for him, that IS the reality. If he truly cares about his investment, he needs to do some serious thinking. Otherwise, we will ALL lose.
While I'm no fan of UAIR management, Remember UAR is not the same airline it was only a year ago, Siegle has managed to wrestle 1 Billion Dollars of concessions from employees and appears he's after more. I do not claim to have the gift of prophecy (unlike some), I do not think people should automatically assume that UAIR will be a pushover this time around. It's quite possible there might be a little game of possum being played. Southwest also has it's own problems just like any other airline. High fuel costs,( Labor problems, presently F/A,s) They're a well run airline no doubt, but I see no one walking on water.
phllax
Veteran
BoeingBoy,BoeingBoy said:
I flew out of PHL to PBI on Friday, 9/19/03 on a 1/2 filled 400, which was one of those days you are referring to. They only used 17/35 for landing 319/320, 737, MD-80, F100, and props. Only props were taking off from 17/35. No heavies or 321 aircraft were landing on any runway that morning. 27L was being used for takeoff, and we had to sit at the end of the runway for about 5 minutes until there was a momentary break in the cross winds. IT wasinteresting to see an ERJ take off and getpushed all over, followed by the same thing happen to a UPS 767. The first 90 seconds we were getting pushed all over the place, until we turned right into the winds, and there wasn't another bump until we landed.
With regards to 700's getting off from 17/35, I have rarely seen that used for large jet takeoffs. I did see a BBJ get off of there in October, but he probably didn't weigh anything near what a regular 737 weighs.
If SW thinks they can get their planes on and off of 17/35, let them and see how many sets o brakes and tires they gothrough in the process.
