I Doubt That Employees Will Vote 4 Concessions

[AOG-N-IT]

All I can say is this. My job allows me contact with almost every city U serves in the mainline perspective.

Usually after the business issue of the phone call is handled..the very next question is this " What are you hearing or seeing"????

The answer is usually more of the same...or the latest rumor from stall # 3. The conversation almost always ends with " I'm not giving nothing else to these people"..."They couldn't do anything right or intelligent with what they got..so to heck with it "

To say that usaviation.com is not a good barometer for the real feelings of the average of Joe at U is an extreme falsehood to put it mildly...to put it accurately , it's a boldface lie.

I for one refuse to further impower a collection of fools that take from one side then in turn P1SS it out the other window with poor decision making and wholly avoidable short-sightedness.

For me....it's force them to think...force them to actually run this airline....or let the Sheriff show up with the pad-locks this time.

 

[UseYourHead]

First of all, I AM NOT A NEWBIE. This may be my first ever post, but I have watched this board for a long time. I know who the troublemakers are and I know who the reasonable ones are. So for all of you who value your self-worth in the number of posts you make here, just save yourself the typing in trashing my opinion like you do with anyone you don't agree with. I have read your posts for a long time and I deserve to be heard and respected. The reason why I am finally posting today is I AM FED UP WITH THE NEGATIVE CRAP I SEE ON HERE the last few months! There's too much complaining and not enough positive energy and solutions.

The reason I am responding to this thread is because it is the first one in a while that seems to have a resemblence of making sense. There are a few posts here from people that are giving the "Almighty Negative Cult" some very sound advice: "if you are that unhappy and that mad at the world, leave, quit, adios." Because there are plenty of us around here that don't feel the way you do.

If we want to compete with Southwest, EVERYONE has to do their part. We have to get fuel hedged and make sure we don't spend a penny more than Southwest. This is a fact. We have to fix pricing, the low cost guys have fares way cheaper. We have to fix the labor costs. The sick time, the pilots flying 20% less hours than Southwest, and on and on and on and on................. Let's stop blaming each and every nit picky thing. We are all to blame for letting these things build up over the past few decades. The answer is, we have to fix it all because the gravy train is over. If we don't WN is going to eat our lunch, because they are getting everything right.

Everyone compares their seniority to the Southwest scale and says they are in line or would make more at Southwest. But noone ever seems to admit, or they seem to ignore that our employees have been around longer. Our costs are so high because our average seniority is higher and we have some productivity issues. Who should we blame for that? Frankly, blame whoever you want, but do something about it to get it fixed.

Another thing, Kudos to PineyBob. Everyone knows he is a customer. OUR customer. He doesn't know everything and I have been annoyed with him sometimes, but he does generally offer sound discussions and we tear him apart on this board. He doesn't have all the answers, but at least he's not on hear blaming everbody and telling them they are stupid.

Stop complaining and start fixing things!

It is amazing that anyone that has anything positive to say is weak, doesn't know what they are talking about, whatever....

In my post above I never once said anything about consessions, yet that was the theme of the responses.

This place is a black pit of discontent, and it would be hard to believe any constructive thought could be welcome here...what was I thinking?

Guess what guys, you are not the mainstream, I hate to break the news to you. Are people mad? Yes (including myself)

Does the mainstream have the capacity to entertain new ideas...Yes!

Those who do not, take a hike!

 

[Traveler]

That's cool! Throw the company under the bus! Real intelligent! Hope you like Government cheese.

Your point is a good one -- In another time and in another place. Two years ago it was appropriate. Two years ago it was relevant. Two years ago the employees trusted Management and chose not to "throw the Company under the bus". Since then the employees have given Siegel an unprecedented place in Airline History with unmatched levels of sacrifice yet seen, especially since 9-11.

The reason your point would have been a good one back then is that the employees had yet to give up anything. The reason your point is not relevant today is because the employees have given up unimaginable Billions. You must understand those numbers to keep everything in context. Again, and listen closely -- The employees gave the Company Billions. Like Management, you'd like to just wipe the slate clean, reset the counter to ZERO, and assume it's labor's reckless and uncooperative attitude which is destroying the Company.

Your assumption is also that Management has done an effective job of developing a plan and anticipating the obvious completive challenges of LCCs. The Company neither had a plan nor did they anticipate LCC competitive challenges. Not only did they not have an effective plan but the plan they did have has been slow to evolve. The POR approved by the ATSB and the BK Court along with Billions in employee concessions has given the Company advantages necessary to insure the success of the Airline – Management’s words not ours.

It was Management’s miscalculations, arrogance and complacency which has caused the Airline to loose credibility in the financial community and in the industry.

Miscalculations – While USair was practically the only network carrier to consistently loose money, Management points out that it was the strength of a diversified and expanded reach which has allowed other network carriers to turn the corner of recovery. Contradicting themselves, Management emerged from Bankruptcy with plans and threats to shrink the airline further if only they weren’t restricted by labor agreements. Now, reversing course, Management is talking about a 60 frame increase in the fleet.

Arrogance – Management believed they could continue the winning management style in Bankruptcy by bullying Vendors, Lessors, Airport Authorities, Political Institutions and Labor. By doing so they have lost tremendous opportunity for Goodwill for themselves and the Airline. The Airline has seen a continuity in Management’s approach to leadership. Labor agreements signed and agreed to by Management are only Eight Months old. Since then we’ve witnessed hundreds of contract violations. Furthermore Management has made no effort to scale down costs pertaining to it’s corporate headquarters and operations; They’ve rewarded former Executives when it was within their ability in the Bankruptcy process to alter these agreements and contracts; And USAirways current management, from the top down have stated that, absent of selfish Executive Pay and Benefit Packages, they have no loyalty to this Company.

Complacency – Management has not shown the same aggressiveness in implementing its Competitive Plan as it has pursued concessions. The nature of LCCs is to grow aggressively into Network carrier’s markets. This trend has not changed since before 9-11. The Company wallowed in complacency – in an Executive leadership vacuum of corporate strategy, timely initiatives and direction. While LCC as well as other Network carriers were busy responding to evolving industry challenges, USAirways Management squandered opportunity. Because of this complacency and failure to capitalize on the unique advantages Bankruptcy offers, Management once again scrambles for carelessly lost footing. In the process USAir’s tired leadership, once again, has become desperately out of ideas... Except for one. Like you, they want to discount the Billions they’ve already received from labor. It’s difficult, but they’re really trying hard to test the public, political, legal and financial communities’ gullibility that it’s once again a Gluttonous Labor Problem.

Unlike you, Labor has a memory of Billions of dollars in concessions. Unlike you, Labor as watched other Successful Airline Executives, Financial Leaders and Analysts criticize Management and praise Labor during this most difficult year of sacrifice. Unlike you, Labor has seen Management reward themselves disproportionately to the Executives who’s Airlines Management wishes to emulate.

Regardless of all the above, you’re point may still be relevant to a small degree. But the only way more concessions will be extracted is with new Management.

Because of all the above, there is no more trust in this management. You believe Labor is dragging the Company under the bus. You are blind to what labor has in fact done, what Management said they needed, and how Labor was praised for their sacrifice. Management is driving the bus which you refer to. And Management is trying to run down the company with reckless driving. Labor has and will do their best to pull the Company from the Path of reckless management. To do that, however, all must realize that we need a new driver for your bus. We just don’t trust them.

If your points are correct and this Management remains on the property, then the Company will fail for lack of trust in Executive integrity and competence. If you points are correct and Management it replaced early enough by the BOD, then the employees will listen and consider the logic for growth and success. Trust in Management means a higher probability of Airline survival. No Trust in Management means certain failure, either now or eventually.

So, it’s simple. Help us get trust and credibility back in the driver’s seat of your bus. If you believe this Airline can survive without such trust, then show me the Airline which has prospered with such leadership. Better yet, show me which Airline has in fact, “SURVIVED†without the trust and confidence of Labor in their Executive Leader... None, NOT ONE, has survived.

One the other hand, the employees can show you Airlines which have visited Bankruptcy, even twice, and have survived with very credible and trustworthy Leadership.

It's not a matter of who the replacement will be. It's not a matter of how long it will take to get the airline off autopilot and reprogramed back on course to survival and prosperity. It's about starting now, starting as early as possible to aviod the inevitable destiny of an Airline with poor Management / Labor relationships. There are extremely capable former and current industry executives who would rise to the challenge of interim Airline Leadership until a permanent Executive Team can be recruited. One which has the blessing of both the Board and Labor.

 

[UseYourHead]

All I can say is this. My job allows me contact with almost every city U serves in the mainline perspective.

Usually after the business issue of the phone call is handled..the very next question is this " What are you hearing or seeing"????

Te answer is usually more of the same...or the latest rumor from stall # 3. The conversation almost always ends with " I'm not giving nothing else to these people"..."They couldn't do anything right or intelligent with what they got..so to heck with it "

To say that usaviation.com is not a good barometer for the real feelings of the average of the average Joe at U is an extreme falsehood to put it mildly...to put it accurately , it's a boldface lie.

I for one refuse to further impower a collection of fools that take from one side then in turn P1SS it out the other window with poor decision making and wholly avoidable short-sightedness.

For me....it's force them to think...force them to actually run this airline....or let the Sheriff show up with the pad-locks this time.

As far as this board representing the mainstream I beg to deffer. I message board is populated with a unique group of people who are very active in this medium.

It is FAR from reality.

Professional polling is a scientific study that randomly samples the population, in fact activity here would disqaulify someone as tainted....

Does this mean that everyone is happy...NOT!

 

[UseYourHead]

UseYourHead,

"Most employees of our fine airline will want to live to fight another day."

First, we are rapidly reaching the point where "most employees" will have been sacrificed to "fight another day".

Second, "living to fight another day" implies that one will actually fight on another day. Else it becomes "live to give another day".

Everyone has their own personal "line in the sand". I do know that labor concessions alone will not save this airline - unless everyone is willing to work for less than at Mesa. This airline needs fundamental restructuring - not necessarily becoming a LCC but maximizing the efficiency of the hubs, more point to point, growth, etc. Without fundamental restructuring, "living to fight another day" only postpones the inevitable, and not very long at that.

I believe that there is very little time left. I believe that Bronner was at least partially truthful when he said that the next 30-90 days will determine the fate of this airline. I would only add that making it thru those days does not mean the airline will survive. To do that the structural problems need to be addressed - something this management team has failed to do after being given every resourse including bankruptcy.

Jim

Did I say Give anything?

You make good points about management and the ability to execute a plan. I hope that we can get a new team in here and do just that.

Until then, we've got what we've got....

BTW, are you interviewing for your next job yet? I would be if I felt like you do....

 

[TransatlanticFlyGuy]

First of all, I AM NOT A NEWBIE. This may be my first ever post, but I have watched this board for a long time. I know who the troublemakers are and I know who the reasonable ones are. So for all of you who value your self-worth in the number of posts you make here, just save yourself the typing in trashing my opinion like you do with anyone you don't agree with. I have read your posts for a long time and I deserve to be heard and respected. The reason why I am finally posting today is I AM FED UP WITH THE NEGATIVE CRAP I SEE ON HERE the last few months! There's too much complaining and not enough positive energy and solutions

What a wonderful post! I really think you speak for a great deal of the employees here. Yeah....there are about a dozen of you that post on here all the time who think you speak for the entire employee group, but the truth is that you dont. All you spread is negative crap and energy on this board and then you are so gracious to bring it to work for ALL of us to hear.
I shake my head in disbelief all the time at the naysayers here.....you just seem so unhappy. If things are that bad for you you should really just leave. Im sure a furloughed employee on the street would love to have your job.
Next week i will have completed 10 years with US, I have seen alot of heartache happen at our company but I have loved every minute of it. I dont want to see it end, and deep down I DONT think it will. I have been blessed to have had the chance to work with some of the greatest people in the industry who care about our passengers AND our company. Most of these folks are not ignorant to the changes that are occuring every single day to the airline industry. The time has come for US to change and adapt to these changes or simply cease to exist.

 

[UseYourHead]

What a wonderful post! I really think you speak for a great deal of the employees here. Yeah....there are about a dozen of you that post on here all the time who think you speak for the entire employee group, but the truth is that you dont. All you spread is negative crap and energy on this board and then you are so gracious to bring it to work for ALL of us to hear.
I shake my head in disbelief all the time at the naysayers here.....you just seem so unhappy. If things are that bad for you you should really just leave. Im sure a furloughed employee on the street would love to have your job.
Next week i will have completed 10 years with US, I have seen alot of heartache happen at our company but I have loved every minute of it. I dont want to see it end, and deep down I DONT think it will. I have been blessed to have had the chance to work with some of the greatest people in the industry who care about our passengers AND our company. Most of these folks are not ignorant to the changes that are occuring every single day to the airline industry. The time has come for US to change and adapt to these changes or simply cease to exist.

Well put TAG,

There are a majority of people who have the level of sanity required to think clearly. The choices ahead are tough....

 

[colorado_cowboy]

Your point is a good one -- In another time and in another place. Two years ago it was appropriate

Traveler,
Damn good post!
nuff said

 

[BoeingBoy]

One Hit Wonder,

Welcome to the world of posting, for indeed it does mean exposing your ideas to rebuttal and even sarcasm.

You are right - our "costs" are too high, specifically our cost per available seat mile. However, "CASM" is a big pot of which employee costs are but one part. As has been said, employee costs are in line with our competitors, even though we have a more senior workforce.

The problem is in the other costs (over which the average employee has no control), and the other side of the CASM equation - available seat miles.

The other costs are controlled (at least to some extent) by management. They decide to hedge fuel or not. They decide to reduce or expand point to point flying. They decide to make the hub/spoke more efficient or not. And on and on.

Management also makes the decisions on the ASM side of the equation. Shrink or grow the airline. How many and what size RJ's. What routes to fly with which airplanes. And on and on. It is not for lack of trying that no airline has ever shrank to profitibility. Since 2001, employee costs are down over 30%, total costs are down over 26%, but mainline CASM is down only 9.5%. Why didn't CASM come down more? Because ASM's are down over 25%.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I for one hope you continue to take an active part on this board. Discussion is healthy.

Jim

 

[PITbull]

We are already one of the lowest paid labor forces in the industry. If employee costs are still too high, it isn't from the "labor" employees!

If we vote for more W2 reductions, then "if" we were laid off (probable for some, certian for others), we would recieve less unemployment compenstation.

If we vote away our scope protection, then when we are laid off (certian), we will recieve unemployment benefits according to our present (reduced) salary. But, this will also allow upper management to pocket the salaries from those of us who were Layed-off. (Long Term)

OR:

The course most of us has chosen.

We keep our work scope, keep our already reduced saleries, and make management do their job and run this awesome airline. If they choose to ignore contracts, or engage in other types of stupidity, then we all go out together. We still get our "higher" unemployement, just like we would have, had we given them what they want.

So the question is, do we go on unemployment voluntarily, rewarding upper management with our wages?

Or does labor take a chance of making a future for ourselves and our co-workers, taking a stand to make sure that the destruction of our jobs means the destruction of their jobs too?

For most of us, it's an easy choice.

Remember boys:

Your above post is "true reality" in a nutshell.

 

[PITbull]

That's cool! Throw the company under the bus! Real intelligent! Hope you like Government cheese.

To my knowledge they aren't talking wages for the most part they are talking work rules and productivity issues.

Why not carefully listen to what is said and instead of the typical knee jerk reaction try to see a way to at minimum come back with a proposal of your own that addresses the need to be more productive. Suppose they are sincere and really will increase mainline flying by 60 planes in exchange for work rule changes and going to a rolling hub?

Harsh economic realities have changed the industry FOREVER. It's not your fathers Oldsmobile to be cliche. The current cost structure is UNSUSTAINABLE for any legacy carrier. Just like the BK filing US will be the first casuality or the first to prosper as a company. The culture needs to change and trust me when i tell you these views have been shared! I'd like to see US apply for and WIN the malcolm Baldridge Total Quality award for several reasons.

The process of completing the application will result IMO in savings far beyond the 300 million being floated.

To may knowledge no airline has won it. Think of the marketing opportunity that would bring.

Think what the process would do to build teamwork and morale.

Bob,

You don't make sense. If we concede, do you think there won't be concession 4 &5 &6 etc???? So, when do you say that's enough from the employees...or don't you? There are many "quality of life" issues inherent in all our contracts,,, or should we have no "quality of life"? Is "Quality of life" only for the "elitists"? You say above, "suppose they are sincere"? You make me laugh.... really, now sincere? Maybe this time? Gee, how do you know?

Managment is trying to have us concede by threats to have contracts that are exactly as the impoverished regionals. Regional employees stay on at regionals in hope of going to "mainline" with a big carrier. We will not continue to lower our "bar" for the sake of inept managment. That's it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

UseYourHead,

You are right - I went back and reread your original post and you did not use the word "concession".

You did say "Things are going to change around here, one way or another" and "the lower wage will be offset by the lack of uncertainty in your life".

I guess some of us assumed that "change" & "lower wages" coupled with Dave's talk of more cost cutting meant concessions.

Jim

 

[PITbull]

You know what folks? There are some of us here at US Airways that really do want our airline to survive and prosper and really believe that we can. I have looked at and read over so much negativity that is written by US Airways employees here at usaviation.com but i never respond. The hatred that some of these posters throw out to fellow employees and management is just unbelieveable. If some of you would spend just half the time putting the effort into your jobs on the line as you do writing on here I think our passengers would notice. Im the first one to admit that Im not happy with all the changes that have come into effect with our jobs over the last 2 1/2 years. In the end though, I love my job as a flight attendant and would not give it up for anything. The airline industry as we know it is SO DIFFRENT from what it was like 12 months ago. This is not a 9/11 thing anymore. US has to compete with all the LCCs that are now beginning to swallow up our turf, plain and simple. As much as I hate to admit it, cost cutting just might have to take place. My ears will be open to see what can be done. Dont call me a company guy folks! Im just a 30 yr old who is being realistic and sees what is going on around us in our industry.

I can say to you this, if you have room in your paycheck to give to U managment, please fill free to write Dave out a check every single month to help them out. If you can petition f/as to give more, I am sure your LECP will be happy to present that to the entire MEC that the majority want to give more.

As far as your statement wanting USAirways to survive, I don't believe there is a poster on here or anyone who wants U to not survive; it our jobs. However we will not continue to give to inept mangement our hard earned dollars OR our "quality of life".

Again, If you are that sicncere and believe that more concessions are necessary, you need to circulate a petition among your ranks who agree with you. In fact, you can write a letter and post it. Make sure to put your name and base on it OR it will be torn down. Make 300 hundred copies and place it on the tables for all to receive. Share your love for more concessions with others. Put your money where your mouth is...and share your wealth.

 

[PITbull]

Traveler,

And Bob has been saying that for at least the past two years...

BTW, excellent prospective, so well thought out, and is exactly how all employees feel at present.

BTW, I would like to live with you....

 

[UseYourHead]

UseYourHead,

You are right - I went back and reread your original post and you did not use the word "concession".

You did say "Things are going to change around here, one way or another" and "the lower wage will be offset by the lack of uncertainty in your life".

I guess some of us assumed that "change" & "lower wages" coupled with Dave's talk of more cost cutting meant concessions.

Jim

BB,

The "lower wages" was directed to another poster who stated that he would like UAir to fail, he will get another job making lower wages, but at least he would not have to deal with the uncertainty any longer.

While I too do not enjoy the roller coaster ride, I would prefer to leave on my terms, not help the business to fail. There is only one thing I have control of, and that is my attitude.

It makes a BIG difference in my day, my co-workers day, and my passengers (customers) day.