Herb Kelleher On Phl Entry

[SWAFA30]

Try finding a connecting flight thru their web-site - you can't. Yes, you can build your own connection but you can't buy a ticket for say ALB to PHX. You buy two tickets - one from ALB to a "focus" city and another from the "focus" city to PHX.

According to the October 26, 2003, printed flight schedule, there are at least 5 daily scheduled services from Albany to Phoenix. The are a total of 6 but one service only operates M-F. The route is sold as scheduled connecting service via BWI or LAS or a 2 stop same plane service. Southwest.com will issue an e-ticket on this routing for a walk-up fare of $299. Additionally, MDW, PHX, BNA, TPA, LAS, HOU, DAL, STL and several other larger stations offer mulitple scheduled connections that do not require the passenger to build their own schedule. Even stations as small as SDF do some connections. For instance there is scheduled service from BHM to BWI with a connection in SDF.

 

[4merresrat]

Well, Tom, then let me clarify. I am not speaking of the businessman who travels, but our much loved "price-sensitve-passenger" These are the ones who believe it is an inherent right to travel. When I was growing up, I learned if you couldn't afford something, you either don't buy it, wait till you save up, or find another option. When I worked in res. everyone had to hold there tongue-in fact bite it, when people whined and complained, and belly-ached that they couldn't afford the 179.00 fare. We all wanted to say-have you tried 'Greyhound? But of course, that would not be proper sales procedure. It is like at a Lexus dealership, if Mr. Price-Sensitve-Buyer walks up and wants a Lexus but can only afford a Focus, well the salesman would in no uncertain terms direct this customer to the Ford dealership across the street. But passengers assume they deserve to fly. It is written in the constitution-and how dare anyone try and make a profit-WN included. I've lived it!!

 

[AKA_trvlr64]

But Herb is right.

You can talk big all you want to, but if fares go down (and they will) to a level where WN can make a profit and U is still losing its shirt, it is only a matter of time.

And etops1... "this low cost mania too shall pass?" Where have you been? The American public thinks it is their Constitutional / God-given right to have low fares, even if is built on the backs of airline employees. It's the continued Walmartization of America. This "mania" ain't going anywhere!

Well put, exactly, the general public does believe it is their right to travel, and if not free, well, then cheaply, and how dare a company try and make a profit. It has gotten WAY outta control. THe only way I can see it ending is if an airline or two goes out of business and gets the seat capacity in line. But hopefully not US!

4merresrat I hope you're being sarcastic here. And Bear96 let me just say that working for an airline or any business today is not a career, it's a job. And if you feel your back is being walked on, then I suggest you turn over and get out.

I'm sure you both shop wisely when buying cars, houses, clothes and even groceries. So why is that any different than people shopping for reasonable airfares? I am going to be bashed for this comment...........but why do airline employees have this "holier than thou" attitude towards their customers? It's a job nothing more nothing less. Let's face it, flying today is nothing more than Greyhound in the sky. The glamorous age of flying from the early days is long dead. There is nothing glamorous about flying today. Your job is to get people from point A to point B. And hopefully you have some fun in your job to make it bearable to continue working for them.

 

[AKA_trvlr64]

Well, Tom, then let me clarify. I am not speaking of the businessman who travels, but our much loved "price-sensitve-passenger" These are the ones who believe it is an inherent right to travel. When I was growing up, I learned if you couldn't afford something, you either don't buy it, wait till you save up, or find another option. When I worked in res. everyone had to hold there tongue-in fact bite it, when people whined and complained, and belly-ached that they couldn't afford the 179.00 fare. We all wanted to say-have you tried 'Greyhound? But of course, that would not be proper sales procedure. It is like at a Lexus dealership, if Mr. Price-Sensitve-Buyer walks up and wants a Lexus but can only afford a Focus, well the salesman would in no uncertain terms direct this customer to the Ford dealership across the street. But passengers assume they deserve to fly. It is written in the constitution-and how dare anyone try and make a profit-WN included. I've lived it!!

Oy Vey!

That "price-sensitive-passenger" is everyone. Tom and I fly constantly for our jobs. so our companies pay for our tickets. But, now I can't speak for Tom, but when I am footing the bill for my travel I shop for the most reasonable airfare. That's what consumers do. And that is YOU and ME.

And let me tell you a little secret, our companies are telling us not to purchase those overpriced airfares anymore. Those Fortune 500 companies, and I work for one of the biggest, is watching how much they spend on airfares.

So it's just not that "P-S-P" anymore. It's EVERYONE.

 

[PHL]

But passengers assume they deserve to fly. It is written in the constitution-and how dare anyone try and make a profit-WN included. I've lived it!!

As an employee of the airline, I don't think you get the big picture. The More and more I see this attitude on these heavily employee-visited forums, the more I think your sentiments are becoming widespread amongst your peers. Look beyond the scope of your contract. Guess what - you're in the business of SERVING THE CUSTOMER. I don't care if you're under the terminal pushing bagagge or greeting them at the door. When you start complaining that the customers "assume they deserve to fly", it becomes evident that you really shouldn't be working in this business.

These LCC's aren't going away. The majors have all been predicting SW's demise for years (well, not so much in recent years).

And, just watch over the next decade for the SATS (Small Air Transportation System) to take shape when the $1-$2M 6 person jets clear FAA certification (Eclipse, Saffire, Cessna Mustang, Adams). "Air Taxi" will have a whole new meaning when myself and 3 colleagues can go from our local general aviation airport to another one for a shared cost far less than that of an airline, riddled with delays and the surley TSA.

 

[4merresrat]

tom and friend, let me tell ya, the "secret" has been out for years. We all know how price-sensitive the big companies have become-sorry to take the bang out of your revelation. And as far as "holier than thou" attitude of airline employees, I really don't know what you are refering to. You have obviously seen it from one side only. Unless you are a holier than thou airline employee it is hard to imagine the abuse the front line employees have put up with for years from people who believe it is their birthright to travel. Of course WE are all price-sensitve, that is just a term corporate uses to define the customers who will only fly on the deepest discount fares-and IF they can't get them they WILL NOT FLY. Unlike business travelers who have to get to a meeting etc.

 

[4merresrat]

PHL,
Thank you for clarifying who should and should not work in the business, again you obviously have NO IDEA of the mind set of the general traveling public today. And lucky for you. The attitude of entitlement so many have-but I guess it is rampant not just in this one area but in society in general. Please don't speak of what you evidentaly don't understand.

 

[Boeingguy]

>>>Sounds like a challenge, or a bluff............................ <<<


One thing I can assure you on is that Herb never bluffs. If he says that if X happens I'll do Y, you can bet that is what he'll do. When El Paso was discussing raising landing fees several years ago, Herb told them "Do it and I'll reduce our flights there by a third" (or maybe it was half). Anyway, they did...and he did. He does the same with individuals, vendors, and suplliers....many examples.

SWA isn't interested in running another airline out of business...SWA simply siezes opportunity and goes where they can make lots of money.

 

[etops1]

someone correct me if i am wrong. but isn't phl the 1st primary hub airport southwest invades?. i think it will be difficult for them to succeed. all other a/p they serve are secondary a/p's . so they don't have to deal with delays and such things. in phl they will have to deal with the phl factor. i will love to see wn try to do a 10 min turn around in phl. i read in article that wn will be parking at the e terminal giving them faster access to 27L which is normaly used for dep's. what about when the weather is crappy and they have to use 9L and taxy behind u's a/c and be number 20 for departure.
also you gotta see here that u has the upper hand. we have feed in phl. if someone is going from fco to dfw . they are not going to fly u to fco and then change on wn and go to love feild when they already bought a ticket on u taking them to dfw. i have heard that the new plan by u includes a rolling hub system eliminating the bank times also more long haul flying to feed phl. wn has there work cut out for them. my opinion. i can happen j-blue was beat out of atl by delta. u can do it in phl. so fasten your seatbelts. its gonna be a bumbpy 2004 in phl.

 

[KCFlyer]

someone correct me if i am wrong. but isn't phl the 1st primary hub airport southwest invades?.

They serve Detroit (hub for NWA), they serve LAX (hub for everybody and their dog it seems), they serve SLC (hub for Delta), they serve STL (former hub of TWA), and it could be argued that they "invaded" Chicago, Dallas, and Houston, albeit from secondary airports. So I'd say that they have already moved into "hub country" long before PHL.

 

[Boeingguy]

etops,

>>>i will love to see wn try to do a 10 min turn around in phl. <<<

I think you are mixing up turn times with "slow" airports......that is -- airports with lots of delays and slowdowns. A 10 minute turn is a 10 minute turn once the plane gets to the gate. (Anyway, most SWA turns are now 25 to 30 minutes). SWA builds the schedule to take into account airports that need 25 minutes for the last 50 miles of flight or long waits for take-off.

>>>i read in article that wn will be parking at the e terminal giving them faster access to 27L which is normaly used for dep's. what about when the weather is crappy and they have to use 9L and taxy behind u's a/c and be number 20 for departure.<<<

The situation happens all the time at other places. Even if SWA gates are close to the departure runway they are usually told to wait and go in sequence with other aircraft already taxiing. However, faster access will indeed payoff when there are few aircraft waiting to take-off. (Besides, if U's "rolling hub" concept as you state comes to fruition - that will help delays for everyone in/out of PHL!).

>>also you gotta see here that u has the upper hand. we have feed in phl. <<<

Same sort of stuff was said for BWI. There will be plenty of people in the PHL area for origination and destination. SWA doesn't claim to want to serve "everywhere" like UAL's "Worldwide Service" and other egotistical laden phrases that many airlines use....SWA just does what makes it profitable. You are in the traditional cliche' filled standard thinking mode of most airline people.

>>>i have heard that the new plan by u includes a rolling hub system eliminating the bank times <<<

That should help with delays a lot. I was always amazed at airlines creating their own delays by scheduling 200 flights in or out in a 30 minute window. Utterly stupid. At least U might be doing something right now.

U people predicted all sorts of terrible things for SWA when it started serving BWI, PVD, and MHT several years ago: "They can't handle the winter", "They can't handle the fog", "They can't handle the ice", "We have the NE market wrapped up". "wait'll the first snowstorm hits 'em", "We have the feed". "No one knows SWA up here", "Wait'll they see the delays in the NE", "we're gonna kick Herb's butt back to Dallas". etc, etc, etc. Talk is cheap and easy -- SWA walks the walk. SWA has the brightest and sharpest management in the airline business. They have studied why other airlines have failed in both the macro (total failure) and micro ( failed in a market). You think they haven't studied the situation in PHL in depth and are just walking naively into PHL?? I assure you, they know everything there is to know about flying in and out of PHL as well as the market situation.

 

[Fatherknowsbest]

It's Xmas eve, and I don't know why - but I decided to take on more look at this board before the big Holiday.

I just read the WHOLE interview on business week. It makes me ill. Herb is as good as it gets. I would give my eye teeth to work for someone like that. He hires the right people and he inspires them and man, they get it done right.

Folks IT IS OVER. We won't beat them in Philly. I look around and wonder how too many (not a majority but) of my co-workers got thru the initial job interviews. We have been beat down for SO LONG, maybe that has something to do with it. SW hires well period.

We go thru the motions, but we are dead. I am ashamed of the 2 people who raised Dave Siegel. The man was not taught what is right and what is wrong - or he was taught the difference but just doesn't care. The problems started long before he got here, but he told us how it would be different - and it's not.

Everything is so negative at US Airways. I think God for many blessings today, US Airways is not one of them. We have lived off of excessive high fairs for so long that many people mean no ill will - but want us gone. They know why the price is going down and it has nothing to do with us - its SouthWest etc killing the yield. The fine people of Philadelphia are not so stupid to not know the fare just dropped 45% because ..........US just wanted to be nice.

I think many of us here take pride enough that we still try to provide the best service that we can under the circumstances...........but our competitors don't have to make such excuses.

I wish the best for the many fine people who work here. The public will not care we are gone because we are the Airline that doesn't fit anymore. 2004 will see the end. Prepare for evacuation everyone and good luck!

 

[4merresrat]

Father may know best (which is doubtful) but correct me if I am wrong but this Father anyway doesn't know all -unless you are omnipotent. Saying it is over is really sad-before the fight has even begun. And saying you are ashamed of the two who raised Dave Siegel-well that is just uncalled for, you are the one who pointed out it is Christmas eve. I am ashamed of YOU for saying that. Give up the personal attacks on Dave Siegel. Sure, criticize his business plan, or the way he handles employees but PLEASE bringing his parents into this is really too much. After all it IS Christmas eve. Shame on YOU

 

[Bear96]

And Bear96 let me just say that working for an airline or any business today is not a career, it's a job. And if you feel your back is being walked on, then I suggest you turn over and get out.

I'm sure you both shop wisely when buying cars, houses, clothes and even groceries. So why is that any different than people shopping for reasonable airfares? I am going to be bashed for this comment...........but why do airline employees have this "holier than thou" attitude towards their customers? It's a job nothing more nothing less. Let's face it, flying today is nothing more than Greyhound in the sky. The glamorous age of flying from the early days is long dead. There is nothing glamorous about flying today. Your job is to get people from point A to point B. And hopefully you have some fun in your job to make it bearable to continue working for them.

I think you are reading too much into my posting, or perhaps confusing me with some other posters here. I agree a job is a job is a job these days. And of course consumers will look for the cheapest option. That is to be expected. Further, airline employees had better get used to that. And, I agree air travel is little different than bus travel these days.

However. Consumers should recognize that their focus on cost at the expense of all else will lead to unpleasant surprises. Wanna shop at WalMart? Go ahead. But then don't complain when your local downtown shrivels and dies, throwing people out of work. And don't complain when small local stores disappear leading to less choices for the consumer and your only choices become whatever WalMart stocks. And don't complain when your tax money goes towards providing health care for WalMart's employees since WalMart has a pathetically stingy insurance system for their employees so they go without until they end up in the emergency room. (Sorry, I don't really mean to concentrate on WalMart so much but I am trying to make a point and I used the phrase "Walmartization of America" in my last post so forgive me!)

Want cheap air fares and don't care about anything else? Great. But don't complain when a few marginal carriers are forced out of business, and many smaller markets that SouthWest and JetBlue won't touch suddenly lose all service. And don't complain when enough capacity is then squeezed out of the system so that fares start to rise and we are back to the outrageous fares of the mid-late 1990s.

Though I am fairly frugal, I for one do not shop at WalMart. Though it may cost a bit more and be a bit more inconvenient to go elsewhere for certain items, it is just not worth it to me. I am *aware* of the consequences of my consumer choices and spend accordingly.

And BTW who are YOU to say what a "reasonable" fare is? To the average consumer, "reasonable" is probably coast-to-coast for $19 and anything over that is "outrageous." The consumer's idea of what "reasonable" is is probably about as warped as airlines', just at the opposite end of the spectrum. You may point to Southwest's $299 cap as "reasonable." But I guarantee if all airlines suddenly matched that, you would then be saying $299 is price gouging and a "reasonable" air fare by your definition would suddenly be down to $199.

You sound like a union employee during contract negotiations complaining they aren't getting paid what they are "worth." You never get what you think you are worth (or what you think is "reasonable")-- ultimately it comes down to what the market dictates. Markets-- labor markets or fare markets-- may be out of balance temporarily, but they usually right themselves sooner or later.

Finally, "cheap air fares at the expense of all else" has other consequences as well. You mention if I don't like it, I should "turn over and get out." As a matter of fact, because of what airline jobs have degraded into, I am now almost completely out of the airline biz, with one little toe still in, and should be completely out in short order. Good people are leaving. You get what you pay for. Yes, yes, "Southwest does it" with cheap fares and good service, and good for them. But they are a unique company for many reasons, and to date their success has not been duplicated on a widespread scale. Soon the travelling public will really have to face the music that paying a pittance for wages and having horrible working conditions will have real consequences for the level of service they receive.

So. To summarize. I agree cheap fares are here to stay, and airlines and their employees had better get used to that and either adapt or die. But I also think consumers should be careful what they wish for, because they just might get it.

 

[autofixer]

U has defeated itself at PHL. High prices and way substandard service will allow SWA to get its foot into the door and then when the public gets a taste of their service, they will blow the door wide open, just like thay have everywhere else. SWA has happy, energetic employees. U has degraded, scared and disrespected employees. SWA has lots of money--when was the last time they lost money? U has no money and is on the verge of bankruptcy again. I am a U employee on leave (working on my family's plan B)and I was hoping to come back in June; now I am not sure it is worth the effort. I don't mean to be so "down"; however, I am on the outside right now looking in and it looks pretty bad.