Hedge Funds Seeks DL/UA Merger

[LukeAisleWalker]

So the DL FAs would face a paycut in the amount of AFA dues. Gotta feed Pat Friend.

Union dues are tax deductible. Furthermore, the hourly rate and per diem only tell part of the story. There are duty rigs to consider, holiday pay, insurance premiums/coverage, etc.... Delta f/a's also helped to feed Leo Mullin and his ilk when they robbed the company a couple of years ago and left with millions.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Back on the topic of DL/UA - isn't it amazing that a hedge fund "discovers" that the best merger partners also happen to be the carriers whose stock said hedge fund owns......

Jim

maybe but there are some of us that always believed DL/UA made the most sense. Remember that big bad Leo Mullins of DL tried to initiate a codeshare arrangement with UA a decade ago and Gordon Bethune was apparently willing to say that he believes it is the best combination in the industry.

Like everything, I'll believe it for real when it actually happens but there is more than enough smoke to deny that something isn't being discussed.

And for those of you that think the union card is so powerful, I'll remind you that DL has eliminated more union jobs as a result of its acquisitions of Pan Am, Western, and .... Putting DL in the position of acquirier is a huge incentive for any financier when it comes to the ability manage the integration process.

 

[North by Northwest]

maybe but there are some of us that always believed DL/UA made the most sense. Remember that big bad Leo Mullins of DL tried to initiate a codeshare arrangement with UA a decade ago and Gordon Bethune was apparently willing to say that he believes it is the best combination in the industry.

Like everything, I'll believe it for real when it actually happens but there is more than enough smoke to deny that something isn't being discussed.

And for those of you that think the union card is so powerful, I'll remind you that DL has eliminated more union jobs as a result of its acquisitions of Pan Am, Western, and .... Putting DL in the position of acquirier is a huge incentive for any financier when it comes to the ability manage the integration process.

And allow me to remind you, neither were the size of any present day legacy.(which would clearly trigger the RLA union authorization vote, followed by a 51% win, and Delta becomes completely Unionized overnight) I believe some Delta folks may be concerned with having done to them what they did to Pan Am.

Just because Delta wants to be a "buyer" doesn't mean it will.

 

[North by Northwest]

dupe

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL employees have had more than enough opportunities to unionize but they have repeatedly chosen not to do so. And tell me, what did unionization do for AA or UA employees that put them on better footing than DL's employees? DL employee groups are all more than large enough to vote for unionization but they have consistently chosen not to do so. And if you think that unionization efforts at this point will do a thing, you are dead wrong. Even if a unionization election was won TODAY, DL would have a very long time to negotiate a contract with that employee group and by that point could have pulled off a merger. Unionization hasn't saved anyone anything in the airline industry and won't do any good now either.

No, DL may not be a buyer but their turnaround plan and their support from Wall Street has far surpassed that of the industry average. It is precisely for that reason that DL will likely be an acquirer and not an acquired.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

DL employees have had more than enough opportunities to unionize but they have repeatedly chosen not to do so. And tell me, what did unionization do for AA or UA employees that put them on better footing than DL's employees? DL employee groups are all more than large enough to vote for unionization but they have consistently chosen not to do so. And if you think that unionization efforts at this point will do a thing, you are dead wrong. Even if a unionization election was won TODAY, DL would have a very long time to negotiate a contract with that employee group and by that point could have pulled off a merger. Unionization hasn't saved anyone anything in the airline industry and won't do any good now either.

No, DL may not be a buyer but their turnaround plan and their support from Wall Street has far surpassed that of the industry average. It is precisely for that reason that DL will likely be an acquirer and not an acquired.

World Traveler....have you ever worn a Delta uniform? Pilot, flight attendant, ramp worker or mechanic? Have you ever been employed by Delta in any form or fashion?
Just curious....because if not, then you have no idea what you're talking about. Unionization is about more than whether your pay and/or benefits are going to be cut. (If the unions chose not to work with management 2, 3 years ago, people like you would have said they sunk the airline, put thousands out of work. Most chose to work with management to help during the bad times and you say unionionization "hasn't saved anyone anything in the airline industry.." You've set up an impossible standard for the union in your first argument.) Having a union is about accountability and mutual respect as well. You can read all the business articles you want but until you've been called into a supervisor's office, not allowed to bring a witness with you, assumed to be guilty until proven innocent, then you don't know whether a union is good for an airline employee or not.
FYI, From a Delta FA working on the AFA campaign:

If Delta decides to take disciplinary action against you there are certain things you should know:

- You will be considered guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
- You will be alone in the initial meeting with management.
- If an entire crew is involved the rotation will be split into individual dupe numbers to segment you from your crew.
- If you have a good file, it may not matter. Your documented past will be separate.
- After your initial interview your I.D. will be taken and you will be told to wait for the decision from Delta.
- When the decision is made you will be called in to a meeting alone, although there will be at least two Delta representatives there, maybe more.
- If you are found to be innocent of the charges you will still have some type of documentation in your file.
- You will be sworn to secrecy or further disciplinary action may follow.
- Any trips missed during this time will not be pay protected.

Here are "7" magnificent reasons to have a contract when facing possible disciplinary action:

1. You will be notified 'in writing' of the specific subject that management is investigating
2. You will have immediate contact with AFA representatives available to you from the first minute you hear of a problem.
3. You will be presumed innocent until proven guilty. You will have the entire legal department of AFA to back you up.
4. You will be treated like a professional. You will have the right to a timely resolution.
5. You can be sure that management will be required to conduct a 'thorough' investigation
6. You will have someone sitting in the room with you during any meetings with management.
7. For most investigations, you will be pay protected for your trips missed. This forces accountability onto management.

 

[North by Northwest]

6 of those last 7 come in mighty handy as you pursue litigation OUTSIDE of Delta or any other non union employer that fires you for "just because we feel like it" cause.

Unions created the middle class that created the largest economy on earth..in the USA. Delta faces a long and VERY costly battle with any legacy group of employees it combines with if it thinks it will continue on it's NON union road. And trust me, at this point, every group in the airline industry is battle hardened and more than capable of taking on a non union airline.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Though he's been....AWOL..from these boards, World Traveler is no Dummy, and he knows VERY WELL, that what you 2 guys have said, ..IS TRUE(though he won't admit it)

(If he keeps it up, I'm gonna' be forced to sic..."FLY" on him, to administer ANOTHER A$$ WHOOPIN")

 

[2BlacknBlue]

Unions created the middle class that created the largest economy on earth..in the USA. Delta faces a long and VERY costly battle with any legacy group of employees it combines with if it thinks it will continue on it's NON union road. And trust me, at this point, every group in the airline industry is battle hardened and more than capable of taking on a non union airline.

x 10!

 

[WorldTraveler]

You've set up an impossible standard for the union in your first argument.) Having a union is about accountability and mutual respect as well.

But THAT IS the standard to which unions are held today. If you can't protect people's jobs and benefits during a downturn - and it extends far beyond the airline industry as evidenced most recently by the ability of the autom makers to push major concessionary contracts through - AND those companies are not even in BANKRUPTCY.

Unions didn't invent job protections and they are hardly the only ones that offer it today. DL and most other companies have very high standards of proof when it comes to terminating an employee; you seem to forget that there is a legal system in this country including juries that is generally not supportive of big companies. If an employee has been wrongfullyl terminated, there are more than enough protections available to him/her.

Again, I'll remind you that DL has eliminated more union jobs than any other airline in history by means of acquisitions and mergers. And yet those employees have voted over and over again not to unionize even when given the opportunity. Apparently, DL employees know they are treated as well as they can expect - union or no union. Is life at DL perfect? No. But ask Fly had many concessions her union had to give up in order to keep her company afloat - and they still want to sell out based on the uncertainty that they can be viable for the long term.

And if you or anyone else thinks that a "yes" vote for unionization will do any good now, you are sorely mistaken. Consolidation will take place long before DL has to finalize a contract - even if any other employee groups decide they want to unionize today.

DL's management will be the favored group to lead consolidation in the industry and in the process will convert 10s of thousands of union jobs to nonunion jobs and add millions of dollars to peoples' takehome pay as they are freed from union dues - and no one will miss their "former life".

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

But THAT IS the standard to which unions are held today. If you can't protect people's jobs and benefits during a downturn - and it extends far beyond the airline industry as evidenced most recently by the ability of the autom makers to push major concessionary contracts through - AND those companies are not even in BANKRUPTCY.

Unions didn't invent job protections and they are hardly the only ones that offer it today. DL and most other companies have very high standards of proof when it comes to terminating an employee; you seem to forget that there is a legal system in this country including juries that is generally not supportive of big companies. If an employee has been wrongfullyl terminated, there are more than enough protections available to him/her.

Again, I'll remind you that DL has eliminated more union jobs than any other airline in history by means of acquisitions and mergers. And yet those employees have voted over and over again not to unionize even when given the opportunity. Apparently, DL employees know they are treated as well as they can expect - union or no union. Is life at DL perfect? No. But ask Fly had many concessions her union had to give up in order to keep her company afloat - and they still want to sell out based on uncertainty they can be viable in the long term.

And if you or anyone else thinks that a "yes" vote for unionization will do any good now, you are sorely mistaken. Consolidation will take place long before DL has to finalize a contract - even if any other employee groups decide they want to unionize today.

DL's management will be the favored group to lead consolidation in the industry and in the process will eliminate 10s of thousands of union jobs - and no one will miss their "former life".

I think you're mistaken.

The previous merger/aquisitions you speak of pale in comparison to a UAL/DAL merger.

As it stands now at both carriers if the merger were announced tomorrow, DAL would have little hope of remaining non-union. The fact that a DAL management team would prevail in a power shakedown means nothing when it comes to representation issues.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

World Traveler wrote..."Again, I'll remind you that DL has eliminated more union jobs than any other airline in history by means of acquisitions and mergers. And yet those employees have voted over and over again not to unionize even when given the opportunity."



WorldTraveler...again, I will remind YOU of the question I posed to you: Do you or do you not work for Delta? The answer would have to be a resounding NO for the following reason:
I can only speak for flight attendants which are the only group right now that are anywhere close to calling for a union election, however, you must remember of the 2 recent mergers/acquisitions (Western and PanAm), there were approx. 2000 f/a's in each group...totalling 4000. Now of that 4000, about 20% have left due to attrition, leaving you with about 3200 of those "eliminated union jobs" as you like to call them (this phraseolgy is poorly written as these employees have jobs at Delta). Now that's 3,200 out of 13,000 total DL f/a's...approx 25%!!
Of those, the overwhelming majority are in favor of union representation. I know this because of where I am based. Also, the failed Feb 2002 AFA election showed 29% in favor of union representation, (right after 9/11) but 50 to 70% support in former Western and PanAm bases.
So again, WorldTraveler you're only speaking as an outsider.

 

[NYCDelta]

HOw does this being on reserve 3 days a month work? I have never heard of such a thing/

You're on call for 3 days per month. Don't get too excited-it may be changing again. I think most of us would like to see new hires have a few more days (maybe 6), so that people with 20 years wouldn't have any. I can only speak for myself, but after 2.5 years of ready reserve when I started, then to go off reserve for 9 years, only to go back on reserve for 5 years (even if only 3 days per month) is a little annoying. I'm all for paying my dues-but I'm sick of having to pay for a crash pad in NYC for those damn 3 days!